Consumer Rights Bill

Lord Holmes of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House long, as I understand the real reason why everybody is here. However, I wish to make one or two points, particularly as I disagreed with the proposers of the amendment at earlier stages of the Bill.

First, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Moynihan on his persistence and cheerfulness as the long-distance runner on this issue. I congratulate both him and the Minister, my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, on having worked so hard in the last few weeks to arrive at a workable compromise. I have enjoyed working on this Bill with them, with my noble friends Lady Jolly and Lady Bakewell, and with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and her colleagues on the Opposition Benches. I acknowledge the mutual courtesy and constructiveness that have been displayed at all times.

I accept that this compromise can provide more transparency in the marketplace in the interests of consumers, but we have always maintained that that must not be at the expense of the recognised and reputable operators in the secondary ticketing market. I am pleased that my noble friend Lord Moynihan acknowledged that these proposed changes have been designed to protect the reputable secondary ticketing market. He recognises that there is public support for greater regulation, but there is also wide public support for having a system of secondary ticketing. This proposal is better than encouraging people to go back to the ticket touts at events—or, indeed, using online and offline classified advertising.

On this side particularly we welcome the 12-month review of consumer protection issues relating to secondary ticketing. I reiterate the points that my noble friend Lord Moynihan made. I hope that the review will cover the wider issue of wholesale ticketing harvesting—the computer programs designed to circumvent procedures designed to contain sales to individuals, and how they can be best countered. I hope it will also examine and promote best practice techniques and the phasing of ticket sales, which maximise the chances of real fans obtaining the tickets.

There is, however, one final concern that should be expressed. I was glad to have the Minister’s reassurance on this matter; I hope that she can speak again on it without reservations. We welcome the compromise restricting event organisers’ ability to cancel the tickets that have been legitimately sold if they are identified in the secondary ticket market. However, the proposed new clause permits cancellation if the resale terms flout the terms and conditions of the ticket. That could cause confusion. I understand that it is right that the original seller should apply a cancellation if, for example, an adult was sold a child’s ticket. Can the Minister repeat that it will be completely unacceptable to have a blanket condition in ticket terms and conditions banning all resales—and, indeed, resale at a higher value? If either of these conditions prevailed it would drive a coach and horses through what we assume are the good intentions of this compromise. It would appear to be an unreasonable and unfair restraint for consumers in the ticketing market.

Apart from that, I welcome this compromise. I look forward to seeing it properly implemented.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, the A1 is a beautiful road linking north and south. Motion A1 is a beautiful Motion, linking the sports fan back to the sport and the music fan back to the gig. It goes to the heart of a problem that has dogged sport, music and live entertainment for decades in this country. It is a great day for the sports fan and a fantastically bad day for the fraudster. Let the fraudster—the cyber, sheepskin-clad fraudsters—begone. This will make a tremendous difference to anybody who truly has sport, music, art, cultural and creative events in their hearts in this country.

There will be much to discuss in the review—many minutiae and details need to be bottomed out. I also believe there is still much that sport and music promoters can do to further protect their product and truly drive the primary market in tickets for their events. This is a great amendment and a great day across sport and music. It is testament to my noble friend Lord Moynihan, who has shown dogged determination over months to get us to this stage. The man from Monmouth has coxed this amendment to a successful and superb conclusion.

[Baroness Heyhoe Flint (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for bringing such a smile to my face. I love the word “dogged” here; I know he has a beast of a similar persuasion at his feet. The vision of a sheepskin-clad fraudster outside Lord’s when it is 75 degrees in the summer trying to get rid of his tickets brought a wonderful degree of levity to the occasion.

As I have spoken at every stage of the Bill on this issue, I hope the House realises how strongly I have felt about seeking to establish a fair market for sport and entertainment. I hope by the time the Minister has stood up there will have been reassurance to my noble friends Lord Borwick and Lord Stoneham for the slight concerns they have in certain areas. Secondary selling has now had an enormous amount of scrutiny and I am convinced that we have got to the right point in the Bill, crafted with so much ability and long-life energy by my noble friend Lord Moynihan. He has worked so enormously hard that he deserves to sit down in a darkened room after this and have a break. It really has been quite remarkable.

I declare an interest as a board member of the England and Wales Cricket Board and I hope I do not offend any Scots when I say thank goodness that England managed to beat Scotland in the World Cup a few days ago. No disrespect to the Scots but I might not have been able to walk through the door had that not happened.

The amendment before the House is not as comprehensive as the one we voted for just before Christmas but after lengthy negotiations, as mentioned by my noble friend, it addresses the key concerns raised and introduces—in that wonderful phrase—some new light-touch regulation. Alongside this it introduces the statutory review which many of my noble friends have complimented, and it is hugely welcome.

I too thank the Minister for the enormous amount of time she has spent considering this issue with all of us championing the cause, and for making her officials so available. That is so important and they helped us to drive through and draft this Motion. It will benefit fans of sport and entertainment across the country and up and down the A1—this is an A1 Bill, we must not forget that—and it has been greeted with huge congratulations from hundreds and thousands of people within the worlds of sports and entertainment. I almost feel that we should break out into a Mexican wave when we reach the conclusion of today’s discussions.

As we have heard, the Motion protects the consumer on the reselling of tickets by introducing the basic information we have so desperately wanted. Crucially, it does not in any way prohibit or ban the resale of the tickets. Concern was voiced before during the passage of the Bill about what information should be required and it is clear that we have sought to protect privacy issues by neither the name nor the address of the seller being given.

The information reporting set out in the Motion is important. It provides a way of detecting fraud and misleading selling. Indeed only last week, as my noble friend Lord Moynihan mentioned, the DCMS acknowledged that it was important that information was provided at the point of sale so that both consumers and event organisers could be certain whether listings were of genuine tickets. This will help to eradicate the curious practice used by many sites of tickets being listed for sale before they have even gone on sale officially by the event organisers and the venues. It is quite remarkable. The review to be established will assess if any further information is required or whether we have got the balance right first time. I hope it is the latter.

When this measure becomes law, those who buy a ticket from a secondary seller will receive exactly the same information and protection when they make the purchase as they would expect to receive when purchasing directly from the event organiser. They will know the value that the event holder has placed on the ticket—its face value—and the exact location of the seat. They will also have the option of checking with the event organiser that it is a genuine ticket. It is simple and effective.

Let us reassure the House about how this amendment would work in relation to the rights of the consumer. It is clear that event organisers will be able to uphold only terms and conditions which are fair and which have been communicated to the public when they buy the tickets. Nothing will come as a great surprise to the purchaser of the tickets. It will not have an adverse impact on the ordinary fan who wants to sell on a ticket if he or she cannot attend. All major sporting events—and, we assume, entertainment—either have exchange mechanisms or allow some form of resale at face value. It is hoped that this will encourage the best practice already identified by my noble friend Lord Moynihan concerning the theatre ticket and the terms and conditions on the back of it. Presumably no four year-olds are allowed to go and watch “Fifty Shades of Grey”, as that might contravene the terms and conditions.

Nowadays, for example, the ECB has no intent to cancel tickets sold on at face value, and it already allows the transfer of tickets. This is a form of governance that should be imitated and copied by any event organiser or governing body. It will not cancel those tickets if sold on the secondary market, and why on earth should it? That would cause reputational damage and would no doubt lead to investigation and complaint, as well as turn away and turn off genuine fans.

With the security of this amendment, event organisers will be empowered to take action against the worst abusers of ticket terms and conditions, as has already been mentioned. This covers issues such as fraudulent sales, bulk ticket sales by professional touts—not always in sheepskin jackets—and the use of bots to purchase tickets. To the uninitiated, a bot is a computer program that repeatedly logs in to buy tickets automatically. My noble friend referred to it as “harvesting” tickets; I refer to it as “hoovering up” tickets, but perhaps harvesting is more his scene and hoovering may occasionally be mine. It also covers the advance selling of tickets not yet on sale, as I have already mentioned, exploitative touting, and concession tickets sold to the wrong people in the wrong place, which can lead to embarrassment and discomfort.

The passage of this Bill will play a role in helping the UK to maintain our position as an open and honest showcase for international sports and entertainment events in this country, attracting millions of fans to our venues annually.

Cricket venues are doing everything they can to keep prices affordable, to encourage family audiences and not to overprice the market. However, visiting one or two of the websites referred to and looking at Ashes test match ticket sales, one can see that an averagely priced ticket costing £100 is currently on offer at at least £600. It is possible to get a ticket with a full hospitality package in one of the stands costing £1,950. I thought, “That must be a very expensive meat pie that they sell at Lord’s”, but it just shows what an amazing, incredible and dishonest mark-up is put on these tickets. It is completely unfair to supporters, who are denied the opportunity to attend major international events.

We have provided much needed protection to fans who spend their hard-earned money watching the sport they love. Those fans or consumers deserve our protection. I do not wish to sound triumphant but I know that there is a collective huge sigh of relief that common sense has prevailed. Now, hundreds and thousands—nay, millions—of fans can give a standing ovation to my noble friend the Minister and her team, as well as to my noble friend Lord Moynihan, for helping to protect the hard-working fan.