Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Removal of Prisoners for Deportation) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Russell of Liverpool

Thursday 26th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, we had an interesting discussion about this on Tuesday in the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, of which I am a member. As the Minister said, once again the Explanatory Memorandum was not all that we might have wished for. The committee now keeps a scorecard that shows which government departments are the most egregious in providing inadequate Explanatory Memoranda, so we will effectively have a league table, where some departments are up for promotion and some for relegation.

In this case, I am interested whether the Minister can tell us whether the nationalities of the prisoners involved are preponderant in two or three countries. I think that Romania and Albania were suggested as possibles during our discussion on Tuesday. If that is the case, what discussions have we had, if at all, with those countries and their judiciaries and police forces about the imminent arrival of some of their citizens? If another country were to do the same and had a large proportion of our citizens in prison who were about to be sent back to our shores, some sort of communication between the different national authorities would seem appropriate.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support the Motion. However, people should not be confused that the removal of these foreign national offenders means that they will not return; it does not stop their re-entry into the country.

I am concerned by the small numbers relative to the size of the problem: there are 88,000 people, so to remove 300 at most is not an awful lot. What worries me most is that the biggest problem is the state of sentencing and the law around it. The drift is always upwards. I have yet to hear a political party of either persuasion argue for lower sentences.

That may sound odd coming from someone of my background, because I have always supported the fight for serious offences getting serious sentences. However, during my time in policing, we have seen a rise from well below 50,000 people in prison to 88,000. Surely at some point someone must do something about the major cause, which is the law saying that high sentences are OK and judicial sentencing councils being pressured to increase sentences to the maximum within that.