Queen’s Speech

Lord Henley Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

The criticisms that I make of the Home Office are but mild by comparison with what we have just heard.

I believe that this Queen’s Speech is dreary and largely irrelevant to the needs of this nation. It fails to focus on real public concerns. Public works, increased economic growth and youth unemployment are but three of the issues that are highly relevant at this time. I have attended many Queen’s Speeches, but I cannot recall one that had so many deficiencies.

Tonight, I propose to concentrate on home affairs and law and justice. As far as home affairs are concerned, I will make several criticisms of the Home Office, but I say at once that we are delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Henley, who is a friend of many of us, in his place. The Home Office is often regarded as the ministry of the non-living. Whether that description is well merited is by the way. Mistakes can all too readily prove irrecoverable. That is not necessarily the fault of the Secretary of State, but it is the Secretary of State who carries the can. Of course the Home Office is too large and delegation often occurs, often with fatal, or near fatal, results, and it is the Secretary of State who is held responsible.

Prison policy is a good example of this deficiency. For the most part, prisoners can be obdurately unyielding. My experience as a defence solicitor is that frequently prison guards and prisoners do not begin to comprehend the other’s problems. Admittedly, I go back a long way, but I doubt whether there has been much change. I realise that work is often undertaken in uncongenial circumstances, leading inevitably to an inbuilt resistance to change, but there have been some shining examples to the contrary. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is one of them. He made every effort to detect and tackle mistakes during his tenure of office.

Terrorism, frequently having an international dimension, clearly falls within the Secretary of State’s responsibility. Terrorism can often be accompanied by a messianic ideology. The Secretary of State has to reconcile effective defensive measures with democratic standards, and that is by no means easy, as the Secretary of State has clearly demonstrated, but surely some humility is called for rather than something we hear too often: an irritatingly abrasive mood of “I know best”. I am only too well aware that the Secretary of State has numerous other responsibilities. Is it not time therefore for this vast ministry to be split up, for a ministerial inquiry to be established and for this to be effected immediately?

As far as law and justice are concerned, this House—

[Lord Henley]

It might be helpful if I get to my feet and interrupt the noble Lord to remind him that his party split up the Home Office. Prisons and criminal justice have gone to the Ministry of Justice. We are a much smaller department than we ever were.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

That may be but it is still too large. I do not know whether the noble Lord had any responsibility for that—

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I could not have had any responsibility for it because it was done by the previous Government. I think the noble Lord will remember that I was not a Minister in the previous Government; they were a Labour Government.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

That may be but I still regard the Home Office as much too large.

Although the House devoted a great deal of its time in the previous Session of this Parliament to examining a Bill that got scant attention in the House of Commons, I fear that the system will prove to be far more expensive than our present one in the long term; and that the changes envisaged by the Government will prove to be divisive and largely ineffective. They will also have a deleterious effect on people seeking to undertake civil cases.

In my day—I speak of a very long time ago—criminal cases seldom lasted beyond around three months. Nowadays it is common practice for serious criminal cases to last for a year or more. How, then, can we revert to a more acceptable time limit without adversely affecting justice and the civil components of legal aid? Even though this is a desirable goal, I wonder how much time the Government have devoted to resolving this vast problem. I will readily give way to the noble Lord, who is intent on intervening in my speech at all times.

We have spent much time in the Lords trying to resolve some of the more serious dilemmas on the civil side. Defeats were inflicted on the Government but they remained resolute to be irresolute. Justice will undoubtedly have suffered as a result. I fear that I will be disappointed in my quest for the Government to conduct a further inquiry into this matter. However, an inquiry is called for and ought to begin immediately.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I rise as the 60th speaker in this debate and the House will be grateful that I am the last. The House will be even more grateful that, when I looked at the list yesterday, it looked as though there would be 76 speakers in the debate. At that point, I did my sums and worked out that I could devote something of the order of 20 seconds to each speaker. That has presumably increased by some marginal amount but not much. I make that point purely to make it clear that I cannot devote that much time to every individual speech. I hope that, where appropriate, I will be able to write and respond to the points that have been made.

As always, it has been a very wide-ranging debate. We have covered quite a number of different departments —the Department for Education, DCMS, my own department the Home Office, the Department of Health, the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Work and Pensions. I think I have been associated with virtually every one of those departments at one time or other, with the exception of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I hope that I can still respond to some of those points.

As always, considerable expertise has been shown by noble Lords from all sides of the House. I will pick out one or two examples. We were very grateful for the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, who served on the Dilnot commission and comes with his experience as a former Health Minister. We look forward to the help, advice and constructive criticism—and, no doubt, unconstructive criticism—that he will give in due course as various bits of legislation go through. Turning to the Cross Benches, again I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, who comes with his experience as chief executive of Turning Point. I offer him my thanks for the various trips that he has arranged for me to see some of those organisations. I particularly remember one—I think it was in Manchester. If it was a Thursday it must have been Manchester; it was that sort of visit. I am grateful to him for doing that.

Turning to my own Benches, I am glad as always that my noble friend Lord Colwyn brought his experience as a dentist, of dentistry and the NHS and dentistry. Turning to my noble friends on the Lib Dem Benches, I was particularly grateful to have two eminent QCs in the form of my noble friends Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames offering their advice on some of the Home Office and Ministry of Justice Bills. My noble friend Lord McNally and I certainly look forward to their very helpful advice and constructive criticism on the Crime and Courts Bill, no doubt on the communications data Bill in due course, the justice and security Bill and the Defamation Bill. I think I can say on behalf of myself and my noble friend that if we do not get as much support as we should have on those Bills, we will send them off to help out on the Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill. I think that they will find that somewhat drier a matter to deal with.

As I said, we have dealt with a whole range of points. I want briefly to touch on some of the points that do not really relate to the Queen’s Speech but deserve passing mention. I start by dealing with the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford and echoed by others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick. They regretted that there was no higher education Bill and that there have been delays in this area. The right reverend Prelate and others will have to accept that there have been competing demands, as there always are, for space in the legislative timetable. The White Paper is out, and we hope to publish our response to the consultation, to use a ministerial word, shortly—or in due course. I hope that noble Lords will bear with me for that.

We had a very interesting intervention from my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon on weights and measures. I have to say to him that, although it has been dragging on for some time, I think that we would wish to take the people with us on that. If one looks at the metric martyrs and others, I am not sure that we have quite convinced the rest of the population of the merits of proceeding in the direction he wants us to go in.

We had an interesting intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, on funds going to the Lawn Tennis Association. I regret to see that the noble Baroness is not in her place. It offered an interesting parable about how some public money gets spent without due checks and balances. I was shocked when I heard what she said was happening and how much money was going out. I was encouraged to hear that, as I understand it, Sport England will now be looking for greater use of payment by results, which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will no doubt regret. Proper checks on how government money is spent strikes me as a much better process than handing over £26 million a year—or perhaps it was £26 million over four years—with no proper audit.

We had a whole range of other interventions. We had very useful ones from my noble friend Lord Stoneham and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on pensions. No doubt those are matters that we can look at in due course under the pensions Bill, which will be one of those carry-over Bills that will extend into this Session.

We had interesting interventions from the noble Lords, Lord Laird and Lord Maginnis, on police corruption. I reject the complaints that they are making. I think that there might be individual cases of corruption, but, as I made clear at Question Time, we have adequate processes to ensure that they are checked by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. The important fact is that that commission is independent. I repeat that for us within the Home Office to try to second-guess what it was doing would undermine it.

We have ranged wide over many things. A number of questions have been put which I hope to deal with largely by correspondence. I want to get on to a number of particular points that have been raised.

If noble Lords can remember that far back, I start by going back to the introductory speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, when she complained that we are not dealing with the issues that matter. I think there is quite a lot here that matters and that we have to do. I have to remind her what we have achieved over the past year—over the past two years, because we have had a lengthy Session. She might not like all of what we have achieved, but I take her back to the reforms that we have made to the police with the police and crime commissioners; the health reforms that, sadly, my noble friend Lord Howe has had to leave but which are seared on his soul, from his having taken them through this House; the welfare reforms achieved by my noble friend Lord Freud; the reforms we have made to education taken through this House and another place; and the LASPO Bill and other reforms to criminal justice. I also give an assurance, as a reminder of the point which I think my noble friend Lord Dholakia made, of the reduction in the number of young people we have seen who are in detention.

Perhaps I might start by saying a word or two about the children and families Bill and its timetable, because that was a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and others—including, I think, the noble Baroness, Lady Massey—who were concerned about it having a carryover slot. The noble Baroness then implied that it was not even going to be fit to go on the statute book until the end of this Parliament. In fact, it is only carried over for one Session. I remind her that carryover is a process introduced by the previous Government and one which, ever since it was introduced, all Governments have found convenient for the better management of Bills. We believe that that Bill needs a carryover slot because keeping it to the second Session would not have allowed enough time for the valuable learning and evidence from the special educational needs local authority pathfinders to be incorporated into the legislation. I give an assurance that there will be independent evaluation reports in spring—at the end of this year and in March 2013.

On that same children and families Bill, there was a faint feeling that we were fixated with numbers on adoption. Again, the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, made this point but it was echoed by my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Huyton. I have to say that while we are starting with adoption, we have not lost sight of other important matters. Adoption is the first and, we believe, the most pressing priority at this stage but the Government want all children for whom adoption is in their best interests to be adopted without delay—as long as it is, I stress, within their best interests. The introduction of special guardianship orders may have an impact on numbers being adopted, and we have commissioned further research to understand that.

If I may, I will move on to the care and support Bill. I start off by reminding the noble Lord, Lord Warner, who accused my noble friend Lord McNally of not mentioning it in his introductory speech, that if he looks carefully at that speech he will find that the Bill was mentioned. I invite him to do that. This Bill has been brought in draft and we recognise its importance. What we feel to be important is simplifying and clarifying the care and support legislation; we do not want to miss this opportunity. We believe it is an important objective in its own right and will make a difference to all those who need care and support, and who work in providing these crucial services. The draft Bill will be a key step towards delivering the Government’s vision, which will be set out shortly—I am afraid I have to use that word again—in the White Paper on care and support. As to the precise timing, I am afraid that I cannot take the noble Lord and others of your Lordships any further at this stage. However, publishing it in draft will give all those with experience and expertise, of which there is a great deal in this House, an opportunity to get things right.

Perhaps I might address the point about funding which I think was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. As regards funding, we recognise the pressures which the system faces as part of the spending review and we allocated an additional £2 billion per annum by 2014-15 for social care, including an unprecedented transfer from the National Health Service to social care support joint working. We know that in the longer term, however, we need a sustainable and affordable solution and we want a social care system that is a partnership between the state and the individual.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the question of equal marriage. I start by offering an apology to him and to my noble friend Lord Grade: I missed their speeches because one has to take some time out in the course of an eight-hour debate. The noble Baronesses, Lady Lister of Burtersett and Lady Thornton, also raised the issue of equal marriage. We recognise the strength of feeling on this issue and are committed to enabling same-sex couples to have civil marriage, and we are consulting on how to do that. That is something that my honourable friend in the Home Office, Lynne Featherstone, has made quite clear. We also recognise, though, that it would not be right for any religious organisation to be forced to conduct same-sex marriages as a result of those proposals.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, made clear, the consultation closes on 14 June, and we encourage those who have not yet done so to come forward with their views—they have three or four weeks. We know that this is an issue that people feel strongly about, which is why we want to hear from anyone with an interest, but the consultation proposals relate only to civil marriage ceremonies. We believe that a couple who want to get married and move on in this way should not be denied the right to marry just because of their sexual orientation.

I turn to the Crime and Courts Bill, which received a degree of criticism from my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford and others. There was as always the usual criticism of the Home Office; that is something that we have come to expect and which I think we can live with. I am grateful that there was at least some support, from the noble Lord, Lord Dear, for the creation of the National Crime Agency. I welcome his support for the provisions that will enable that agency, working with other law enforcement agencies, to ensure that there is an effective national response to serious and organised crime. As he says, these provisions will be critical for the future success of the NCA.

As for the noble Lord’s particular remarks about Section 5 of the Public Order Act, I ask again that he be patient for a little longer. It is a complex issue, and we have to give careful consideration to the views expressed in the 2,500 responses that we have had to the consultation. We believe that the NCA will be able to build on SOCA’s strengths but will be distinctly different. The threat from serious organised crime is changing and criminals are constantly adapting to evade detection using the latest technologies to commit crimes that harm individuals, communities and the economy. The NCA will be different from SOCA and will have to address those threats. It will also take a leading role in changing the way that the whole of the law enforcement landscape works together, and will be able to say just how law enforcement agencies operate across the piece.

I note my noble friend Lord Marlesford’s criticisms of the UK Border Agency and UK Border Force, and we will listen to them most carefully. He has taken considerable trouble to go to see UKBA and inform himself of what it is doing. Obviously there is more that we can do, and we expect the highest standards of UKBA and the rest of the Border Force staff. We hope that the majority carry out their roles with appropriate professionalism and integrity. We will listen to the suggestions that my noble friend has made and look forward to improving the way these agencies work. However, I have to remind noble Lords that we have, in effect, two conflicting desires to keep together here. One is to make sure that we maintain the security of our borders and the other is to make sure that everyone can get through immigration with appropriate speed and without having their journeys disrupted, as has happened on some occasions in recent days.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, raised a number of points, and there is one I want to deal with. It is about giving the police the right to strike. When I look at the changes being proposed by Tom Winsor, I see that we currently have a very outdated pay system that was designed some 30 years ago and does not reflect the skill and professionalism of the service. The proposals in part 2 of Tom Winsor’s report would reward hard-working officers in some of the toughest jobs. We are going through the very proper process of considering and consulting on those proposals, but police officers cannot strike and we do not think that it is right that they should strike, and that is not going to change. The police are a civil emergency service, and it is vital that that service is able to discharge its duty to protect the public and keep the peace.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, touched on drug-driving, as did, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, and others. I accept that this will be a difficult matter to get right technically. I think the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, spoke about that while offering his support. This is a matter that we will have to consider very carefully when we get to that Bill because there are technical matters relating to how you test for drugs, which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, touched on, how much should still be in the body and whether it has an effect, but all those matters can be considered in due course.

We are grateful for the varied and interesting points that have been raised in the debate in relation to the Defamation Bill by my noble friends Lord Marks, Lord Grade and Lord Black of Brentwood, the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, and others. As my noble friend Lord McNally indicated in his opening speech, our core aim in introducing this Bill is to reform the law so that it strikes the right balance between the right to freedom of expression and the protection of reputation. As all the points that have been raised illustrate, there is a wide range of views on exactly what that balance should be and how individual issues should be dealt with, but I think that when we get that Bill we will have an interesting and informed debate on the subject as it proceeds through the House.

Finally, because we have had a long day and it is time that we rose and left things for another day, I shall just say a word or two about the Olympics. This subject was scarcely raised during the debate, other than, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Tradeston. We are now down to fewer than 100 days until the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games. I think we can all say that we are on track for a great Games. The project is on time and on budget. Test events and readiness exercises are taking place repeatedly and, as I understand it, the athletes are also in training. The focus of the Government and everyone involved is to deliver a safe and secure Games for London, the United Kingdom and the whole world to enjoy. Home Office-led activity is there to safeguard and secure the Games and remains firmly on track, but we do not want these Games to be the security Games; we want the security to be as low-key as possible while maintaining the highest possible standards. Safety and security funding for the Games has been protected and we believe it is an appropriate investment in the safety and security of the public and our international visitors. The terrorist threat that we face today is real, but we have planned to a threat level of “Severe” to ensure that the greatest possible flexibility exists.

As I said earlier, it is very challenging for me to do justice to a debate of this sort. I appreciate that I have answered a mere tithe of the questions that have been raised and I recognise that many other points will be raised. I will certainly make it my role to ensure that I respond, where appropriate, to all the questions that have been put forward.

More importantly, I certainly look forward to discussing the various Home Office, Ministry of Justice, Department for Work and Pensions and other Bills that are coming to us in reality or in draft. I look forward to vigorous debates on all those measures announced in the Queen’s Speech. I commend the programme to the House.

Debate adjourned until tomorrow.