Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 21st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain]

I resigned. However, she is very welcome and I wish her all the best.

What worries me about this—and I hope that the Minister can give us concrete assurances—is that, on the Brexit agenda, it seems to be in the DNA of Whitehall not to have regard for the devolved Governments. The only reference I can find in the Bill to the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland devolved legislative bodies comes right at the end, when it says that it applies to them. At the very least it is essential that a requirement to seek legislative consent and to consult is written into the Bill, because of course health policy is devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Government have form on this issue in the way that they approached the Brexit legislation earlier in the process. As your Lordships will recall, there was a crisis and a real confrontation with the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Government—and there might well have been with the Northern Ireland Assembly if it had been up and running. It must be in the DNA of Whitehall, because it has simply done it again. That really worries me. I hope the Minister can give reassurances which mean that we do not have to vote at Report on something very similar to these amendments. If a major concession is not made, we will need to do that and seek to defeat the Government.

I endorse what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, said. I ask the Minister to give very specific assurances, spelling out that, if she does amend the Bill—and I hope she will assure us that she will—she will do so only having agreed those amendments in precise terms with the Welsh Government and the Scottish Parliament, and having consulted officials in the Northern Ireland departments.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, it may be useful if I reassure the Committee in response to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. There was extensive engagement with the devolved Administrations in advance of the Bill, not just by officials but by me as a Minister. I spoke to my counterparts in Scotland and Wales, although of course it was not appropriate to do it in quite that way in Northern Ireland, for obvious reasons—there not being an Executive. That happened before, and subsequent to, the publication of the Bill, so this has been going on for several months. It is one reason why we were very pleased to get the legislative consent Motion in advance from the Scottish Government. Clearly, everyone had recognised the benefits that flow from this for the inhabitants of all parts of the United Kingdom.

It is useful for the Committee to know that this is not an activity that has simply been undertaken as a bolt-on in response to concerns raised during the passage of the Bill; it was baked in from the beginning and it has been our intention to move in the appropriate way with no procedural or constitutional novelty of the kind that the noble Lord fears.

[Lord Hain]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Why, then, are the Welsh Health Minister and the Welsh Government still so concerned about this Bill? I am encouraged that these consultations took place, but why is there this evident concern?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The different Governments have clearly taken different approaches. The noble Lord will know that it does not automatically follow, even if you know where you all want to get to, that you can agree it overnight. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will be able to update us.

Personal Social Care: Funding

Debate between Lord Hain and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 16th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

What I said was that we need a sustainable system, and that will be the goal of the Green Paper.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, am I the only Member of your Lordships’ House who is not just frustrated but deeply angry that the Government, with all their warm words, consultations, Green Papers and the rest, will not grasp the nettle and recognise that we have to pay for proper elderly care? That will require taxation and taxpayers’ money to be invested in providing respite and a decent future for people who are living in miserable conditions with families stressed beyond belief. The Government ought to get on with it.

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I agree with the noble Lord that we need to get on with it and to decide what is the fair burden of “who pays?”. I remind the noble Lord that for many years he served a Government who had umpteen reviews, Green Papers and royal commissions, and did not act. We are trying to grasp the nettle that his Government avoided.