Local Government Finance Bill

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I shall start on a somewhat disagreeable note, which is to register our protest about the tardiness of the regulations that we now have before us, to which my noble friend Lady Sherlock referred. They were published on Monday, and there was some challenge to get hard copies so that we could work on them on journeys and when away from screens. It is unacceptable, particularly bearing in mind the point my noble friend made that it was quite possible that this amendment would have been taken earlier before we had seen the regulations or known what was published on that day. At least we have the chance now to get into them before Report. The scope of the regulations is profound indeed, and we should at least have had last weekend to review them in some depth. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Sherlock; it is clear that she has done so from the presentation that she just made.

[Lord Greaves]

I wonder if the noble Lord shares my alarm at the announcement by the noble Baroness that looking at the regulations had made her head hurt, and whether that is something that those of us who have not yet had the chance to look at them have in store.

[Baroness Sherlock]

The noble Lord clearly follows Twitter—that is all I can conclude.

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[Baroness Hanham]

The answer to that is yes. Local authorities have been asked simply to take those who have council tax benefit already and those whose applications have been made already and to transfer them on to the new system.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about housing benefit costs. This relates to applicable amount and income so that it does not skew the award. We will be happy to write on this matter, which, judging by the noble Lord’s face, would be a very good thing. We are continuing to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to develop the treatment of universal credit as these regulations are finalised. There is still work to be done, but we will write to the noble Lord and give other Members of the Committee a copy of that letter, as we have done previously, so that, if we have to have discussions before the next stage, we will have the answers.

Let me read the replies that I have, as we need to put them on the record. Some of this will answer the questions that have been asked and some of it will not, but it will show what we thought the whole question was really about. Amendment 79B seeks to clarify that income from universal credit can be taken into account in determining eligibility for council tax reduction. We touched on this issue in the previous Committee session, when my noble friend Lord Attlee explained that, while local authorities would be free to take universal credit income into account as they saw fit in their local scheme, the Government would be prescribing how this income would be treated in the default scheme. I am pleased to confirm that the regulations are there—noble Lords have seen them.

I think that it would be helpful to explain paragraph 2(2) of new Schedule 1A of the Local Government Finance Act 1992. This is an illustrative provision, intended to show that local authorities can define the classes of person entitled to reductions by reference to such matters as a person’s income and capital and the income and capital of any other person who is resident in the dwelling. The many precise types of income that may be taken into account in relation to council tax benefit are, as the noble Baroness will know, currently listed in regulations. The draft default scheme regulations confirm that this will still be the case in future and, in relation to the default scheme, make it clear that universal credit will be among the types of income to be taken into account. Of course it is right that references to specific benefit incomes should be in regulations given the extent of the detail involved.

The noble Baroness may be seeking assurance on the way in which universal credit income will be able to be taken into account in calculating future awards under the default scheme—that is exactly what she was doing. Perhaps I could try to reassure her further than I have been able to do so far. Universal credit is a working-age benefit and it will normally fall to local authorities to design how income from this award will be taken into account in local schemes for working-age claimants. However, paragraph 4 of new Schedule 1A of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 requires the Secretary of State to make regulations providing for a default scheme. This will come into effect for any authority that has not made a scheme by 31 January 2013 and is to be in place for the financial year 2013-14.

As the noble Baroness will know, there are pathfinders for universal credit, which will commence in April 2013, and the migration to universal credit will commence in October 2013, so it is right that the default scheme should make provision for the treatment of universal credit income, although it will not be relevant to start with. The regulations for the default scheme set out how we intend to treat universal credit income under that scheme. As I said, we will continue to work with the Department for Work and Pensions on the detailed approach. However, we believe that this provides a clear general indication of how we intend to take universal credit income into account in the default scheme. The draft regulations explain that a person in receipt of universal credit will have a means test applied.

Previously, applicants of three benefits being replaced by universal credit—income-based jobseeker’s allowance, income-related employment and support allowance, and income support—would automatically have received 100% council tax benefit. However, universal credit will not distinguish, in the way that those benefits did, between those who are in work, and those who are out of work. This is an important part of the Government’s welfare reform agenda, ensuring that the return to work does not result in benefits dramatically dropping away, so that work pays and is seen to pay.

Claimants will be means-tested, using and appropriately modifying the assessment of income made for the purposes of universal credit. Broadly speaking, after the application of this means test, those who currently get 100% support will continue to do so. Those with a higher income will have their support tapered, as at present. So effectively, there will not be much difference. I can confirm that, in this case, universal credit income itself will also be taken into account, as I have said.

An individual in receipt of universal credit will already have undergone a complex Department for Work and Pensions assessment of income. It is proposed that, to reduce bureaucracy and red tape, this universal credit income assessment should be reused in the means test for council tax reduction, with certain appropriate adjustments for the calculation of council tax reductions; for example, the council tax reduction income disregards will be applied.

It is also envisaged that the DWP universal credit assessment of what the person needs to live on will be used in the means test in the form of the universal credit maximum award, again with some proposed adjustments to take off the housing element, which is disregarded under the existing council tax benefit system. That matter was raised by the noble Lord opposite. Final figures will not be required to finalise the default scheme regulations, as these refer to elements of universal credit award and calculation, rather than specific amounts.

I have answers to some questions that the noble Baroness asked me, but I should never have too many pieces of paper; they are a disaster. Our stated aim is that the default scheme should be as close as possible to the existing council tax benefit scheme. I can confirm that we are also pursuing this policy by looking to achieve, through our regulations, equivalence between the applicable amount in council tax benefit and maximum award in universal credit. It is already well known that the elements that make up the universal credit maximum amount and the elements that make up the council tax benefit applicable amount will have some broad equivalence. We continue to work closely with the DWP on this as well.

Clearly, the exact rates for each element of the universal credit maximum amount have not yet been finalised. The Department for Work and Pensions explanatory memorandum for the Social Security Advisory Committee, published in June, states that at paragraph 42. Should it, ultimately, be the case that the rates awarded to an element were different in universal credit, it would be a simple matter for us to adjust that by topping up the relevant element of the maximum amount so that it was equivalent to the council tax reduction applicable amount. That would still relieve local authorities of a considerable additional administrative burden in which they would otherwise be involved.

The draft default scheme regulations make clear the Government’s intention that local authorities in their schemes should be able to count universal credit income as a type of income to determine who is in a class. It is not necessary to amend paragraph 2(2) of new Schedule 1A to refer to universal credit, as authorities may already take this into account when determining the class of person entitled to a reduction under a scheme. Furthermore, it is not practical. If we were to refer specifically to universal credit in this provision, we might also need to refer to other individual benefits and types of income that may be taken into account. That would entail introducing references to myriad other types of income on the face of the Bill.

Amendment 83 would extend the requirement for local authorities to consult on their schemes so that they were required to do so under the current benefit structure or under universal credit. At present, council tax benefit is centrally prescribed. It is not clear to me what purpose a requirement for authorities to consult on a centrally prescribed set of requirements would serve. We have been clear that council tax support will not form part of universal credit in future, so a requirement to consult on schemes under that structure similarly does not seem needed.

The noble Baroness may be seeking to make clear that the consultation should explicitly seek views on the interaction between their proposed scheme and other current benefits, or the interaction between the scheme and universal credit. This is very sensible, but it does not require regulation. Local authorities are already required to consult on their schemes; we have been clear that we do not intend to prescribe how this consultation should operate, as local authorities routinely consult on matters and have settled policies and procedures, which we expect they will continue to follow.

I recognise that there is a great degree of interest from Members in this Room about how local schemes will take universal credit into account. I hope that some of the responses that I have given will provide greater clarity on that. We can perhaps discuss that before Report and have a proper session on it.

Local authorities’ schemes will be subject to consultation and authorities will need to be prepared to defend their schemes. Members in both Houses and from both sides of the House have expressed their support for the principle of localisation. We trust local government to administer the key services that will make a crucial difference to people’s lives in relation to benefits.

I hope that with that plethora of explanation, the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Greaves]

I may be the only person in this Committee who has not completely understood everything that has been said. If that is the case, I apologise. My noble friend the Minister seemed to say twice that under the default scheme people of working age who currently get 100% council tax benefit would continue to get the 100% reduction under the new scheme. Is that what she said? Under the default scheme, where is it proposed that that should be paid for, given that there is a 10% cut across board that does not apply to pensioners—and therefore it might be up to 20%? Then there are vulnerable people. If in addition to that people who currently get 100% council tax benefit continue to get that 100% reduction, will the cost of that fall on the remaining people of working age who are means-tested and get part council tax benefit, or does the council tax benefit assume that the council finds the money in some other way?

[Baroness Hanham]

I think that the last point that the noble Lord made is the right one. We have been at pains to point out that council tax support will come into the general business rates retention scheme support. The local authority will have to make its decision based on its entire income as to how it funds and creates support for council tax benefit. It is not restricted only to the amount of council tax benefit support related solely to that, which will come from the benefit system.

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[Baroness Hanham]

The default scheme is the default scheme, and the default scheme comes into operation in two ways. One is that the local authority does not have a scheme by the time we get around to 31 January next year, in which case the default scheme would be imposed. The second is that it can choose to use the default scheme as its scheme, and that will then still be the same. If it then does not have enough resources, it has to make the judgment as to where it gets those resources from. As I already explained to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that would not necessarily come just from the council tax support; it would come from its wider budget and whole programme.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I think I understand this now and I am certainly beginning to look at this whole scheme in an entirely different light. My understanding in the discussions we had in previous meetings of this Grand Committee was that lots of authorities would be operating on the basis that everybody of working age would be means-tested and would end up paying something. We discussed at great length two or three Committees ago that this would result in a lot of people only paying very small amounts of money—£1 a week, and so on—and the difficulty of collecting this. I know one thing definitely and have been told another. I definitely know that my own authority is looking at a scheme that involves all council tax payers paying something, and I am told that that is typical of the schemes being looked at, certainly by councils in our part of the world.

We might find out in the next few weeks, but a large number of authorities will probably be surprised to learn that the default scheme involves 100% benefit or reduction for people who get it at the moment. The schemes that are being looked at in many cases at the moment do not involve that, which will mean that the authorities then have to look at where they will find the money from. On my previous intervention, the Minister said that the money would not just come out of the council tax reduction money that comes from the Government. We understand that; it is being cut by 10%. It is not being cut for pensioners or vulnerable people as defined in each area, and if it is not being cut for people who are already on 100% reductions that is another burden on somebody else. It either comes from the rest of the working-age population, whether in benefit or otherwise, who will be means-tested, or, as the Minister rightly said, it has to come from general council resources.

Some of us will have to make these decisions, such as the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, who is not here today, and we do not have those extra resources. We are desperately looking at ways of reducing our councils’ spending overall to comply with whatever grant settlement we get next year, and it is simply not going to be possible to say, “Here’s another burden that we’ll just take into general resources”. I do not believe that a lot of authorities will give 100% benefits to people who get them at the moment, and that is a major worry.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, we are still on the default scheme. If the council is required to adopt the default scheme, the benefits remain at 100%. If it takes on the default scheme as a local scheme, it will make its own adjustments to whatever it believes that it can do. If it sets up its own scheme, the 100% will only come about for a limited number of people on very low income, and it can then taper it up and down depending on people’s income because they will be means-tested at that stage. I am trying to make it clear that the default scheme is the legal backstop for local authorities that do not have one on 31 January. They do not have to adopt it, but they can as their own local scheme. I hope that I have contributed as much as possible on this matter.

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[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I am glad that we have cleared that up. My understanding, therefore, so that we are all clear, is that local authorities have two choices. They either adopt or have imposed on them the default scheme or they create a scheme of their own devising, which may or may not bear some relationship to the structure of the default scheme.

The amendment is actually targeted at the second group of authorities. I have probably confused things by asking some questions so that I could better understand the default scheme, but in fact the amendment is targeted at those authorities that either do not choose to adopt the default scheme or on which it is not imposed. This amendment is aimed at those authorities that devise their own schemes and it was intending to say that they should be required to take universal credit income into account in any means test that they go on to apply to determine entitlement on the basis of income.

The case for that is very strong. Nothing that has been said today in any way diminishes it. It is in fact strengthened, if anything, by the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. There is a real danger that in attempting to square the kind of circles that have been described, an authority will devise a scheme without having a full understanding of the consequences on either individual incomes for universal credit or of the national position in terms of what the Government want to do. That is problematic.

The Minister’s argument, finally, that it would not be practical to name universal credit because one could name lots of other benefits simply does not hold water. In fact, the purpose of this is not about the individuals who are on it: it is about the national policy conference. The reason I am asking this specifically is to enable the Government to make judgments about universal credit—a single integrated benefit for people of working age—to be able to do the things that, at some considerable length during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, we were told universal credit would do. The amendment simply seeks to enable that policy aim to be realised. The case is very strong.

[Lord Greaves]

I have found a statistic that might help the Committee and might not because it refers to Pendle and nowhere else. There are 6,038 existing claimants of council tax benefit of working age, if I have read this correctly. I do not have a proportion on 100% but I have a proportion on 90% to 100%, most of whom are on 100%. The number is 4,479. Around two-thirds of the working-age claimants who are means-tested are on 100% benefit in Pendle, if I have read these charts correctly, which I think I have. That puts the thing in context.

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[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, this has been an interesting discussion. The trouble is that it has been negatived to some extent by the fact that there are already duties on local authorities, as described. With regard to Amendment 80, local authorities already have a duty to consult persons whom they consider likely to have an interest in their schemes under paragraph 3(1)(c) of new Schedule 1A to the Local Government Finance Act 1992. That is inserted in the Bill by Schedule 4, so that is already there. I do not think we can start setting out on the face of the Bill all those people and organisations to whom local authorities might want to put their proposals, so the amendment is not necessary. I do not say that it is not a sensible point; it is, but it is not necessary.

Of course, local authorities will have to consider carefully the number of potential applicants when they design the scheme, so that they have a sound basis for their financial planning. However, I do not think, and I know that it will not be accepted, that creating a requirement for local authorities to do so would be particularly helpful. To create an additional requirement would duplicate what should already be standard good practice in their financial management.

The amendment also requires authorities to publish as part of the scheme the steps that they will take to ensure that people are informed of their entitlement and what assistance they will offer. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, spoke in favour of that. Sub-paragraphs (1) and (5) of paragraph 2 of new Schedule 1A to the Local Government Finance Act 1992 already require authorities to set out the classes of person who are entitled to a reduction and the procedure for making an application. That seems to cover more or less what the amendment is about.

In fact, local authorities will want to ensure that those who are eligible for support claim what they need to, so that they avoid going into arrears with their council tax, which would not help them or indeed the local authorities. Again, to stipulate how local authorities should do that is to put an unnecessary requirement on them when they are already responsible for the administration of council tax generally and the provisions that already exist.

We are absolutely clear—and let me make this very clear today—that people should claim what they are entitled to. It is absolutely true that not all eligible pensioners or people who are eligible for benefits take them up, and there are a number of reasons for that that I am sure noble Lords could explain. One of the reasons is the stigma attached to council tax benefits. Some people say that they do not particularly want their personal circumstances divulged, however beneficial it would be for them, and not everybody knows how to tackle what is sometimes quite a complicated system, although I accept that there are many organisations available to help them. Under the Bill, those organisations will be available to take claimants through the system, and they will. There is no barrier to people making a claim.

As it designs its scheme, the local authority will have to take into account the fact that it may not have all the claimants available to it to start with. Part of the reason for putting this scheme of business rates retention and council tax benefits into the hands of local authorities is that it is expected and hoped that local authorities will continue to encourage enterprise and business, as many local authorities do at the moment, to get people out of benefits and into employment. We hope there will be a balancing act between those who need and are entitled to benefits and those who are perhaps just working their way through them on a temporary basis. However, how its scheme takes care of that is a judgment for the local authority.

When I was speaking earlier, I pointed out a fact that is relevant here: between 1997-98 and 2009-10, council tax benefits doubled. We are not talking about insignificant sums of money but about huge sums of money. We are trying to ensure that we get unemployment down so that those benefits are not required in the same way, but the 10%—

[Lord Greaves]

I am again seeking information as I do not know as much about this as other members of the Committee. When the Minister says that council tax benefit doubled over that period, is that before or after taking account of inflation? It obviously makes a great deal of difference.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, it is after taking account of inflation, so it is a very substantial increase. The 10% saving across the piece in the council tax benefit scheme is making a small contribution to help tackle the deficit.

Localising support for council tax increases financial accountability and helps to make local authorities fully responsible for decisions over council tax levels. They now have a requirement to make sure that that is transparent to people who are claiming it and to people who are helping with it.

Amendment 81 would not only prevent a reduction in funding to local authorities. It could, in fact, lead to an increase in government expenditure because it would require the Secretary of State to provide funds to cover all eligible claimants under a new local scheme, however the scheme had been designed. One of the things that would be quite difficult to work out is how many people are eligible for the benefit if they do not apply for it. The amendment is simply not credible or affordable. The saving scored in the spending review has to be delivered, and local authorities are charged with finding ways to deliver that.

It may be helpful if I tell noble Lords what they already know: local authorities will receive the same amount of money this year to support council tax benefits as they received last year, minus 10%. That will be fixed for seven years until the next business rates reset. Meanwhile, if they can get the number of council tax benefit claims down, if they can get people into employment, if they can make a scheme that goes across the whole of their business front, then from now on they will know how much they will get. It is extremely helpful to them because they can always work within those parameters.