Privileges and Conduct Committee

Lord Grabiner Excerpts

Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

We need certainty as to when the obligation arises and the interest has to be declared. Surely, the whole object of this is to allay the public’s concern and allay a reasonable person’s suspicion that your interest might influence what you are going to say. That is what paragraph 11 currently provides for. You cannot sit quietly and not declare an interest merely because a reasonable person might, rather than necessarily would, think that it is going to affect what you are going to say. That would be an absurdly low test and completely out of harmony with all other public bodies, with the code in the House of Commons and the rest of it. I respectfully urge your Lordships to consider that, if you crossed out “might” and put “would” in the governing paragraph 11, this House would be brought into disrepute because it would be said, “They don’t have to declare an interest unless a reasonable person not might but would think that it would affect them”. Is not that an absurdly high test for when this obligation is brought into being?

[Lord Grabiner (CB)]

I respectfully agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, and perhaps refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. “Might” is less likely than “would”, but it is a realistic possibility, and it is not, with respect, speculative at all; it just means that it could happen in a realistic sense. In those circumstances, if a member of the public might take that view, surely it would be much more impressive if the obligation imposed on the Member of the House is to make a proper disclosure.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

I have the responsibility of having participated in the report now put before your Lordships by the Senior Deputy Speaker. What we are proposing is as good as you can get in this area. First, the member of the public is a hypothetical individual—and the more hypothetical you may think he is when you have heard the qualifications. But the relationship between the Member of the House and a particular interest is not in any sense speculative; it is something that he or she knows they are going to have. Whether that will influence what he or she is going to say in the House of Lords is a very definite matter, so it is perfectly appropriate that “would” should be used. When you are dealing with a hypothetical man or woman—“member of the public” is the phrase used to cover that difficulty—it is purely hypothetical. To say that a member of the public would if properly qualified do this is to set it at a very high level indeed. Having due regard to the difficulty expressed by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, because the paragraph does not say “would” every time, I think that it has made the distinction in a suitable and appropriate way where it has done so.