Libraries: Funding
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I think that local authorities have done extremely well; last year, there was a reduction, I think, of 39 out of the 3,142 libraries. That shows that there is a very strong system. In many cities and small towns, new libraries are opening because there is a refurbishment and the local needs are being identified in that way.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that fundamental to any civilised society is a full network of public libraries, with books in them? E-learning is one thing, but the book is the fundamental foundation stone of the library, and may it long remain so.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am a keen fan of books myself, but it is important—for young people in particular, and given the fact that so many more people are looking after their lives digitally—that libraries provide that facility as well. That is one of the ways we shall ensure that there are more people visiting libraries.
Imperial War Museum
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the Imperial War Museum and the new galleries are an exceptional place. I would very much encourage noble Lords to go to the galleries: they are extraordinary. This is part of the modernisation approach; I spoke to the director-general of the museum about the library and the Explore History service. There is going to be much more digitisation. The core collection is all going to be put in digitised form so that many more people, without having to come into the museum, can look at it. I can assure noble Lords that scholarship is very important. The service will remain open for scholars to come and undertake research, but this is very much about a modernisation.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, we hear too much about modernisation. Does my noble friend not agree that a national museum without a readily accessible library containing books that people can consult is like a university without a research department?
Recall of MPs Bill
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I repeat to my noble friend that that is precisely why I said I would be considering and reflecting on what the noble Lord said. I have said it twice now and I hope my noble friend will understand that I said I would make sure that it was absolutely watertight, because we want clarity on the matter. My understanding is that, if a Member of Parliament were to be convicted of an offence in another country, it would, of course, be open to the Standards Committee of the House of Commons to recommend suspension from the service of the House. It would then be for the other place to decide whether and how to act on such a report. In such a situation, the MP could therefore become subject to recall through the second condition. However, I repeat to my noble friend and to your Lordships that I will look at the point he raised to make sure that there are sufficient safeguards in the matter.
Amendment 4 amends the first trigger to capture only sentences of more than one year. My noble friend Lord Forsyth has already made a point on this, but the amendment would have the effect of altering the first recall condition to make an MP subject to the opening of the recall petition process only if the Member of Parliament had been convicted or sentenced to be detained for more than one year. However, as the noble Lord knows, and as has already been discussed, there would be an automatic disqualification under the Representation of the People Act 1981. Under the noble Lord’s proposal, a Member of Parliament sentenced to more than one year’s imprisonment would be both subject to a recall petition process and automatically disqualified. I think that the noble Lord would agree that that would not be what we want from this process.
Amendment 13 removes the provision for historical sentences by removing Clause 2(1). Subsection (1) states that the first recall condition includes an offence committed before the MP became an MP, but does not include an offence committed before the day on which Section 1 comes into force. However, as your Lordships have heard, the Government have tabled Amendment 15 to give effect to the will of the other place, which would mean that offences committed before the Bill comes into force would be caught, as long as the conviction took place after the Bill comes into force and after the MP becomes an MP. Deletion of this subsection would leave it unclear whether an offence committed before the MP became an MP was captured, and offences committed before the Bill comes into force would not be captured. This would have the effect of restricting the number of occasions on which recall could be used and leaves a lack of clarity. The amendment that the noble Lord has put forward clearly goes against the wishes of the other place, to whose Members recall would apply.
Amendment 16 excludes historical offences that were known before the MP became an MP and would enable Clause 2(1)(a) to ensure that offences that had been “disclosed” before the MP became an MP would not be caught by the recall trigger. Again, this amendment has been raised by the Law Society of Scotland, but we are not clear what the word “disclosed” means in this context. If it is to be taken to mean “convicted”, the policy intention of the Government is clear. An MP who was convicted and sentenced before they were elected should not face recall as their constituents will have been able to take account of the conviction in electing them.
There is, of course, the possibility of a person’s criminal record not being publicly known. However, in either case, the Government’s intention is that, where an individual has been convicted and subsequently elected as an MP, the MP will not be subject to recall. Under the Bill, recall will be triggered only where a sitting Member of Parliament is convicted and receives a custodial sentence of 12 months or less. This could be for an offence committed while the person is an MP or beforehand—and, if the government amendments implementing the will of the House of Commons on capturing historic offences are accepted, whether the offence takes place before the Bill comes into force or after.
On the issue of suspended sentences, I refer the noble Lord to Clause 2(2)(a). I am relieved to say that the word “suspended” is in the Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will feel that his paving amendments have been given a hearing on the Front Bench. I will look at the “or elsewhere” but, in the mean time, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cormack
Will my noble friend be kind enough to comment on the brief exchange I had with my noble friend Lord Finkelstein? Do the Government regard Members of Parliament as employees? That really is a very important issue.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I do not think that I am going to get into an exchange with two noble friends except to say that in my view, we are all servants of the public.
Devolution: Arts and Culture
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I will reflect on what the noble Lord said. I would want to think about it, but the devolution arrangements that we want to have in place are so that there is local identity and national identity. Welsh language and culture are very important.
Lord Cormack (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that the arts are a unifying force throughout the United Kingdom? Does he also accept that there is considerable unease at the withdrawing of funds from musical education? Nothing is more calculated to bring young people together than a common love of music. This is a cause of real concern.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I do not have the figures in front of me but I know that there are robust figures about what the DfE is undertaking in music education, the importance of music education and the opportunities it brings. When I have the figures in front of me I shall speak to my noble friend.
Arts: Lottery Funding
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
That is why I said in my original Answer that it is important that we have a mixed-funding arrangement. It serves us very well to have state funding, lottery funding and philanthropic and corporate sponsorship. The noble Lord is right: local government has huge challenges, as does the nation, about spending. Local government is still the largest investor in the arts, and I hope that it will remain so. There are challenges, but there are enormous success stories where local authorities have recognised that arts and heritage are important for tourism and visitor numbers. There are many examples of cities and towns around the country, Hull and Liverpool among them, which are successful because of their artistic investment.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his own personal commitment, may I ask him to assure the House that the places of worship scheme, whereby grants are given to historic churches and other places of worship on their intrinsic architectural and historical importance, will continue and not be diminished?
Afghanistan: Quarterly Statement
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, we have had a member of the Cross Benches speak already. We take these things in turn. I hope that that will be helpful.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am grateful. My noble friend has made a moving and impressive Statement. However, she has not mentioned one group of people, and upon them so much has depended: the Afghan interpreters. As we withdraw from Afghanistan, we of course maintain our aid and connection. Can my noble friend assure me that the sacrifice and service that those men and women have given will not be forgotten, and that we will ensure—so far as is possible—that their lives will not be endangered after we have withdrawn?
Ratification of the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I think I have emphasised in my replies that this is a question of time. We have pledged that we wish there to be legislation, as indeed did the previous Government. I have read the draft Bill published in January 2008. However, for very legitimate reasons, the previous Government felt that legislation was required to deal with the economic crisis. That is what the coalition Government have done and I believe it is bearing fruit—which is, after all, in the national interest.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I do not think that any noble Lords would doubt the inclinations of my noble friend. However, 10 years is quite a long time and 60 years is even longer. We have just had an extra week of Easter Recess and we have an unnecessary extra week of Prorogation. Can we not just find a little time to get this very necessary measure—on which my noble friend protests that everyone agrees—on to the statute book?
Children: Online Safety
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Cormack
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that minors are not exposed to the dangers of online media.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, the Government take this issue very seriously indeed, and continue to urge all parts of the industry to do more. The four main internet service providers will very soon have implemented family-friendly filters at network level for all new customers, with existing customers to follow. Ministers have also called for all social media companies to attend a meeting very shortly to review what processes are in place to ensure that minors are kept safe.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, while I am grateful for the sympathetic response of my noble friend, I would gently say to him that there is no greater crime than the destruction of childhood innocence. If it is right to take sanctions against those who supply cigarettes or alcohol to those who are underage, is there not an overriding case for not leaving the dissipation of this evil material to self-regulation? We need to take action and we need to do it very quickly.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I can understand my noble friend’s extreme concern about this issue, but it is the case that anything that is illegal offline is also illegal online. On his point about the self-regulatory environment that we have been encouraging—and great progress has been made—with the technological advances in this whole sector, we need to be ahead of the game. That is why we are working to get the internet service providers to be part of the teams, to ensure that the problems to which my noble friend has referred are matters of the past.
Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, but I am very conscious of the Companion and I am very conscious that we are at Report. I sense that noble Lords would like to make progress. I apologise for intervening.
Employment: Tourism and Hospitality
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
To pick up the noble Lord’s first point, it was very interesting to see in the list of those who went with the Prime Minister to China the number from the creative industries and tourism and heritage sectors. It is a very important part of why lots of people want to come to this country. It is why Britain is fourth in terms of culture and tourism on the Anholt brands index. I very much take that point. On the question of subsidy, it is a balance of the great opportunities our culture has to generate its own funds and government grant in aid.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I welcome and endorse all that my noble friend has said. Does he accept that many tourists come here because of the beauty of our countryside, which is being increasingly despoiled by unsightly, uneconomic and unreliable wind farms? Can we have an absolute assurance that the Government will now turn their back on these curiously inefficient structures?
Commencement Orders
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, first, I congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate. I am particularly conscious of his long-standing interest in this issue and his experience in matters of constitutional law and practice. I am aware of the work he undertook for the commission for the Conservative Party. If I may say so, I was conscious that, should we achieve government, we should adhere to many aspects of that piece of work.
I also remark on the long and formidable experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friends Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Lord Cormack and Lord Skelmersdale. It is a daunting prospect to reply when your Lordships have the experience that you all have, but I am glad your Lordships were all, if I may use the word, provoked to speak in this debate. I hope that it is helpful to set out the Government’s current policy and practice on the use of commencement orders.
The Government undoubtedly have responsibility for the maintenance of the statute book. I agree with noble Lords that it is not in principle desirable for there to be parts of enacted legislation on the statute book which remain uncommenced for long periods. In briefing myself on the debate, I became aware of the Easter Act—I must say that I was not before—which is of very long standing. I agree with the noble Baroness that that would undoubtedly cause confusion, indeed, probably bewilderment, among the public if they were to hear about that.
Again from study, I am conscious of the amount of legislation. I should say that in a different life, I have been a strong supporter of less legislation rather than more, and of higher quality legislation. My noble friend Lord Cormack was rightly strong on that point. Given the amount of legislation we have, actually a very small proportion of it is not brought into force within, at most, two to three years of it being passed, although I in no way downgrade the point made by my noble friend Lord Norton.
It has been a long-standing practice of all Governments to treat commencement of legislation on a case-by-case basis. Noble Lords will have seen a wide range of provisions relating to the commencement of legislation in their scrutiny of Bills. That reflects the fact that it is usually necessary to provide a certain amount of notice to those affected by the legislation before it takes effect and that the notice period required will depend on the nature and complexity of the Act concerned. I understand my noble friend Lord Cormack’s proposal about the end of a Parliament. The problem would be that in the last part of the Parliament, it would be particularly difficult to transact any sort of legislative programme.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
That might bear out some of my earlier comments, but I believe that the truth is that all Governments seek to have legislation that is in the public interest, so there is a problem with my noble friend’s proposal, albeit that it is well meaning.
Sometimes, where legislation is relatively limited in effect or otherwise straightforward, it is possible for that notice period to be stated in the Act. A two-month period is often regarded as the minimum, but sometimes it may be appropriate for Acts to take effect immediately. Commencement orders are used to provide the Government with a degree of flexibility in the timing of implementation; I think that my noble friend Lord Norton agreed with that. That may be necessary to allow time for the establishment of new organisations, for industry to adjust to any new regulatory requirements or for consultation on the detail of implementation, which is often undertaken via secondary legislation—I am conscious of what my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale said about statutory instruments. Sometimes, a commencement order may be required to commence different parts of an Act on different days or for the Act to apply first in specific areas or to specific people or situations. It is also sensible for Ministers to retain the ability to ensure that everyone is fully prepared for implementation before legislation is brought into force.
It would perhaps be unduly restrictive or possibly counterproductive for Ministers to be held to an arbitrary time period fixed in the original legislation. This would not allow Ministers to take into account any changes in circumstance which might quite reasonably delay implementation. Conversely, it would not be wise to risk legislation being lost on account of a failure to agree the details of implementation by a specified time period. This is the potential consequence of certain sorts of sunset provision.
I accept entirely that in the vast majority of cases one should expect legislation to be fully brought into force within a year or two of Royal Assent. However, there may be exceptional circumstances in which it may not be possible to make progress within that timescale, but it is none the less desirable to keep open the possibility of implementation at a future date. However, that is not to say that sunset clauses should never be used; on the contrary, they may well be justified, but perhaps act to provide a degree of certainty to businesses that new regulations will not be introduced once a period of time has expired, or as a legislative backstop to be used if required.
I was particularly struck by the Electronic Communications Act 2000, which contained a statutory regulatory scheme that would be brought in if self-regulation by industry failed. The statutory scheme was subject to a five-year sunset clause if it was not needed. In the event, self-regulation worked and the provisions were accordingly repealed. I think that is a good example of what all of your Lordships are seeking. My point is that the desirability or otherwise of a sunset clause of this nature should be considered on its merits and on a case-by-case basis. In seeking to answer directly the question posed by my noble friend, I hope I will not shock your Lordships by saying that the Government do not have precise plans to reform the use of commencement orders. But if my noble friend is making the case that very careful consideration should be given to the use of commencement orders and to sunset clauses, I entirely agree and that is what the Government seek to do. I think it is, in good faith, what all Governments should seek and have sought to do.
I now turn to some of the additional ways in which the concerns expressed by your Lordships could be addressed. First, the Government believe that post-legislative scrutiny, which my noble friend Lord Cormack referred to, has a very important part to play in ensuring that the statute book is kept under review and up to date. For the benefit of Parliament and others, the Government publish a post-legislative assessment of every Act between three and five years after enactment. These assessments include an explanation for any provisions that have not been commenced. Indeed, your Lordships are already contributing to this scrutiny process. In the previous Session, the Select Committee on Adoption Legislation examined previous and forthcoming legislation on this subject. There are currently two committees of your Lordships’ House undertaking post-legislative scrutiny in respect of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and the Inquiries Act 2005. Departmental Select Committees in the other place carry out similar inquiries from time to time, particularly in respect of Acts that have not been implemented fully or satisfactorily, so I believe that this scrutiny is entirely welcome.
Secondly, there is the work of the Law Commission—I am not sure whether my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale meant the Law Commission rather than the Law Society.
Deaf People: Telephone Services
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. The Minister for Communications is already meeting many groups and I would be delighted to encourage him to meet the noble Lord too. I would very much like to attend such a meeting as well. I know that the Minister for Communications is seeking active implementation across the piece on disabilities regardless of whether it concerns those who are hard of hearing or visual impairment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the curses of the age is the Dalek-operated automated switchboard? What most of us want when we make a telephone call is to speak to a human being. Although it is terribly important to give every possible assistance to the deaf, all people should be able to speak to a recognisable human being as quickly as possible and without going through 10 options.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I think that everyone in your Lordships’ House sympathises with the points that my noble friend has made. We have all experienced difficulty in trying to get across what we think is a very simple transaction. Perhaps a message to the banks and to all service providers is, as I say, that providing a human face and human voice very early on is much to be encouraged.
British Board of Film Classification
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I know of the deep interest of the noble Baroness in content available online, which we need to deal with. So far as this matter is concerned, we are working carefully to ensure that the definitions dealing with violent sexual behaviour and swearing are worded so as to ensure that they identify all products that are unsuitable for younger children. The final version of the definitions will be written into the draft legislation that is to be issued for consultation soon. We want to get it right and we would very much welcome any comments. We will then need to notify the EU about the new regulations, following which there will be the secondary legislative process.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the greatest crime of the 21st century is the destruction of childhood innocence? The second greatest crime is preventing young people growing up normally and naturally. Will he be a little bit generous in his interpretation of the word “children” to make sure that we do not expose young men in puberty and girls of equivalent age to things which, frankly, they should never ever be able to see?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I have sympathy with my noble friend. Childhood at whatever age is a very precious time of our lives and children should be able to enjoy it. It is important that the Government should work with parents because their first priority and responsibility is looking after their children. It is obvious that online content is troubling many parents, so that is why we are working to set up internet parental controls and are working with wi-fi providers on a number of issues. In that way, we can ensure that children do not see inappropriate content.
Tourism
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack(11 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I shall certainly make inquiries for the noble Lord and place a record of the findings in the Library. Clearly, the task and responsibility for VisitBritain is to work with all the other organisations including VisitEngland, the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and VisitScotland, and they must of course be co-ordinated because VisitBritain has the responsibility to ensure that, across the country, there are greater tourism opportunities. Wales, with its countryside and industrial heritage, is hugely important in that respect.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, could my noble friend boost tourism this year by suggesting that we put on special tours of all those marvellous areas and wonderful buildings that will be despoiled or destroyed by the extravagant expenditure of HS2?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I know that HS2 has been the subject of earlier discussions; of course, there will be considerable opportunities with that rail network of getting to many parts of the country. As a man of Buckinghamshire, I understand what my noble friend means but the overall objective is to ensure that this country has a vibrant transport network.
Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Cormack
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I can assure my noble friend that the Government and all the other groups that are interested in resolving this issue will be looking at all the evidence. In reaching the conclusions on how best to take it forward, we will be bringing forward a matter that is sensitive, and therefore the Government are working hard with other groups to ensure—
Lord Cormack
I appreciate that this is my noble friend’s first wind-up from the Dispatch Box and that he has the good will of the whole House. However, will he discuss with his colleagues in government some of the citizenship points that I raised during this debate, because it is only through having a thoroughly well educated population aware of its rights and responsibilities that we can finally lay to rest the things which concern us so much in this House?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am delighted to agree with my noble friend. I shall certainly raise those matters that he raised as well as those points that all noble Lords have expressed in this debate.