Deregulation Bill

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jones of Birmingham (CB)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, could I just draw on two aspects—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, we are on Report, and the Companion is very clear about Report stage. I suggest that the noble Lord may not be in a position to speak.

[Lord McNally]

Another gem is lost to us from the noble Lord, Lord Jones. Let us not confuse this issue: the protection of a statutory instrument is not the same as the protection afforded by being in primary legislation. It is that protection of primary legislation that I want to give to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

I have no doubts about my noble friend’s commitments, but we live in strange times. For most of my life, the concept of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been accepted as part of our world governance. We live in an age when people think of the concept of human rights as somehow a western imperialist invention, but I believe that this country’s role in championing human rights since the Second World War has been a very great one, of which we should be proud. David Maxwell Fyfe drafted the European Convention on Human Rights, and when Eleanor Roosevelt launched the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, she called it a Magna Carta for all mankind. There was no need for a translation of what she meant.

This is an exceptional case that I am arguing. I know all the objections of the barrack-room lawyers and draftsmen to specifics in primary legislation, but by putting this in primary legislation, I believe we will be keeping faith with our tradition of protecting human rights and be giving the EHRC the strength to carry on its excellent work. As I have indicated, I would like to the test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

The relatives said to me, and I found it difficult to answer against them, that the Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, on the very next day, had Mr Portillo and other Ministers into her room to discuss it. Of course, the Prime Minister would be concerned at the loss of a vessel—it was of great public concern—but we now know from the inquiry that she agreed with the Department for Transport not to have a public inquiry and for Ministers just to back the view that the maritime board was right. I know that they said it was Blue Circle’s offence—that was the owner of the ship—and it was never really taken to court and, of course, it contributes to Tory Party funds. People think like that sometimes. They could be quite wrong. But I would certainly have liked to hear tonight from the Minister some reply to some of these things. He said that he was coming—I wrote to him and we had an exchange of letters. I assumed that he might be here. I am hoping now that he might just read what we have said today. I entered this debate to have an exchange, like most others do here. “Oh, we’ll have an amendment. Then we’ll get persuaded to withdraw it”—exactly as I will do tonight. But I was hoping to get a debate. That is what a second debate is about. That is why we have moved from those committees on to the Floor: so that we can discuss it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am reading from the Companion, and I am afraid that the noble Lord should sit down while I do so. It says:

“Arguments fully deployed either in Committee of the whole House or in Grand Committee should not be repeated at length on report”.

The noble Lord is on nearly his 17th minute and I think that we are starting to contravene what is in the rules of the Companion.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

Will the Minister perhaps answer the point that we have repeatedly heard arguments tonight from Tory Peers which were quite clearly used in Committee for any length of time? They may not have taken as long as my noble friend has, so far, but collectively they have kept the whole thing going on their own particular interests.