European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Wigley

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, it falls on me to move Amendment 61, which, fortuitously, has my name attached to it. The amendment does what it says: it provides for the result of the referendum to be declared for each of the four constituent nations of these islands. It may well be that this amendment is not necessary to ensure that the people of each of the four nations know the referendum vote in each of their respective territories, but it puts the matter beyond doubt. It recognises the right of each nation to know how it has voted, and for the world to know that as well.

That brings me to the linked amendment in this group, as we come to the end of our Committee Stage debate. Amendment 61C, standing in my name, relates to one aspect on which we have only just touched, and perhaps have deliberately skirted around because of its far-reaching implications. That is the consequence if there were a split vote across the countries of Britain, with one or more of the constituent nations of the UK voting in a different direction from the UK as a whole.

The main focus of attention in this context has been Scotland voting to stay in the EU and the UK voting to leave. However, the arithmetic could equally apply to Wales or—perhaps in a different way—to Northern Ireland. I accept, for better or worse, the constitutional reality that the context of this referendum is the United Kingdom as a whole, for the simple reason that the UK is the member state of the EU which is contemplating leaving the Union. Therefore, it is a decision that has in the first place to be taken by the UK as a whole. If the UK as a whole votes to stay in the EU, even if one constituent nation voted to pull out, it would be extremely difficult for that nation to do so without erecting border controls between itself and the rest of the UK, and between itself and the rest of the European Union. I have not heard that option being seriously argued. If noble Lords feel to the contrary, they are clearly at liberty to put forward their own amendments to deal with that somewhat remote possibility.

However, we are all aware of the very real prospect that Scotland could vote to stay in the European Union and the UK could vote to leave, and that that could reopen the debate about rerunning the independence referendum in Scotland, with the real possibility that this time—for a variety of reasons, of which the EU dimension is just one—Scotland could vote for independence. If it did so, the Scottish Government might well aim, over the same period of time it might take for the UK to negotiate our departure from the EU—heaven forbid—to negotiate their own continuing membership. That road would clearly have its challenges. I do not intend to go down the highways and byways of that possibility at this late stage of the evening.

Incidentally, this is not a question that immediately arises in Wales because at present there is nothing like the same level of support for independence in Wales as there is in Scotland. At present in Wales, there is a widespread desire to secure greater autonomy, some of which is being addressed by the draft Wales Bill, which was recently published. There is certainly a feeling in Wales, and further afield, that the countries of the UK need a new relationship—a balanced partnership, if I can call it that, between the nations of these islands—but that does not manifest itself in the type of momentum towards independence we have seen in Scotland. However, the principle is equally valid in Wales, as it would be in Northern Ireland—or, indeed, in England. If England voted by a very small margin to stay in the EU, and the overall UK result was in favour of pulling out because of the votes of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, I believe that the same question would and should arise in an English context.

That brings us to the heart of the issue: what is to be the future relationship of the four nations of these islands? On 8 September, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown gave evidence to the panel chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, inquiring into better devolution for the whole of the UK. It was set up by the All-Party Group on Reform, Decentralisation and Devolution, co-chaired by the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Purvis of Tweed. Gordon Brown and I have not often seen eye to eye. I would never imagine myself turning to him for words relevant to my argument in the context that we are debating tonight. However, in his opening remarks before answering questions, he made a statement of immense significance. I quote directly from a transcript that has been cleared by his office:

“The UK is a voluntary association of nations and I would stress that if the UK is to exist in the future, then it has to do so for a clear and stated purpose”.

Those were his words in a Committee Room upstairs here.

I add that one such valid purpose is to work together within the EU. It is an immensely important vision and one on which the future relationships of our four nations should be built, for I believe that there is not a person in this House who does not realise that there must be an evolving relationship if the United Kingdom is to survive as a meaningful constitutional unit. If we are to consider ourselves a family of nations, that has implications for the responsibilities we have, one towards another. All happy, functional families intuitively realise that this is the case. There is give and take. It is not a matter of father laying down the law and everyone else doing what they are told.

There was a good example in our extended family a short while ago. The father wanted to move house. He had seen a property that appealed considerably to him some 15 miles away. His wife was willing to go along with the move, although undoubtedly it would cause her much additional work. However, the two children, who attended primary school in their home village, were horrified. They would have to move school, leave their friends and lose the out-of-school activities that were a key part of their lives. They were beside themselves with grief. The father realised the pain he would be inflicting on them if he imposed his will, as he had the authority to do. He wisely decided to forget his plans, in the interests of the happiness and cohesion of the family as a whole. That is the situation we potentially face in this referendum. If we are indeed a family of nations, we should behave as a family. This is the time to face such questions, not in the acrimonious aftermath of a knife-edge referendum result.

Amendment 61C provides for a quadruple lock that defines the basis on which the outcome of the referendum can be perceived as a vote to quit the EU. It would require a vote to do so not only by way of the aggregate outcome of all the votes cast in the United Kingdom, but also within each of the four nations which make up the United Kingdom. It provides that all four members of this family of nations should concur on such a far-reaching move. I am putting this forward to give the Government an opportunity to tell the House how they would handle the situation in which, for argument’s sake, Scotland had voted to stay within the EU while the total aggregate vote in the UK was in favour of leaving. With respect, it would not be good enough to say, “Well, we will cross that bridge when we come to it”, because by then it may be too late. Events will have gathered their own momentum. We would inevitably be facing another Scottish independence referendum. Is that what the Government, and this Chamber, really want?

There may be other formulations of words that would better achieve my objective in proposing this amendment. If so, let us have an improved wording from the Government at Report. All I say, in conclusion, is that if we are indeed living in a family of nations which is a voluntary association, this issue has to be addressed, and I hope the House can agree with that sentiment. I beg to move.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord is perfectly entitled to move his amendment, and although this late hour is probably not the moment to discuss some of these matters, I am just amazed that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—I apologise as I am criticising him while he is not in his place—has put his name to at least part of this debate in support of having separate results announced in separate parts of the United Kingdom. We had a referendum in Scotland which we were assured by the nationalists would decide the matter for a generation. The Scottish people decided to remain part of the United Kingdom and within days the nationalists broke their word. Now we have the leader of the nationalists in Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, talking about another referendum being inevitable.

The polls still show that a majority of people in Scotland wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. The issue is for the United Kingdom to decide. It is the United Kingdom that is a member of the European Union. I am appalled at the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and at the Opposition—I hope that the opposition Front Bench will distance themselves from this argument—for embarking on this nationalist language. It is what has destroyed the Labour Party in Scotland. They have talked about the Tories throughout the 1980s as not having a mandate in Scotland. They used the rhetoric of nationalism and they have been surprised to find that they themselves, as unionists, have been destroyed by it. Here we go again, arguing that this is somehow a decision that Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should have representations on and that there should—as this amendment suggests—have to be a consensus between the four parts of the United Kingdom. It is a nationalist, or regionalist, argument, and should be no part of the consideration of these matters.

I understand why the nationalists in Scotland—and in Wales, it would seem—are scratching around for a reason to justify breaking their word. The Labour Party’s argument has been that we need to have a referendum quickly because of the uncertainty. The damage that is being done to jobs and investment in Scotland because of the uncertainty about the future of Scotland created by this irresponsible nationalist rhetoric, is immense. We took a decision in the referendum and I very much hope that when we have this referendum, whichever way it goes, that is the end of the matter and it is decided and we can get on with the business of creating wealth and jobs in our country. The exploitation of this referendum by the nationalists as a way of trying to create division and dissent in our country is reprehensible.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is a decent and honourable man but he should go to Scotland and look at the division that has been created there by the intimidation that the nationalists were responsible for in the campaign, and the need for healing. The very last thing we need is a further attempt to create divisions between the peoples of this United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the response and for the interest that this debate has generated among a number of noble Lords. I cannot say that I am entirely surprised at the tenor of the debate or the comments that have been made, but before withdrawing the amendment, I will say just two things. First, I passionately want all four nations of the United Kingdom to stay part of the European Union because I believe that both our local family of nations and the greater family of nations are apposite for such a relationship.

I also ask noble Lords to think, between now and Report and as this campaign goes on, what will be the consequences were that to happen. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said that he very much wanted to see the end of debating an independence referendum again. I am sure that he would accept that there is a greater danger of that referendum coming closer if those two results are different and the consequences of the referendum are taken for the UK as a whole.

If that is not the case, it flies in the face of what has been happening in Scottish politics—the fact that 56 out of 59 Members of Parliament are SNP. That surely has a message, and we should be thinking about how we respond to it. I am trying to put forward ideas and grasping at some ideas that Gordon Brown is putting forward about a new association of family members within these islands. We have a commonality of interests in many ways, and we have our distinctive differences as well. There is a need to build on that basis for the future, and the European referendum is one of those contexts.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord is right: 56 out of 59 of the MPs were elected as Scottish nationalists. They stood in the general election on a platform that the referendum had decided the matter and that the election was not about the issue of independence. During the referendum campaign, their party gave an assurance that this was a once-in-a-generation decision. So it is quite wrong to suggest that that result in any way vindicates the idea that you can rerun the referendum if something else happens which you may or may not agree with.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand entirely what the noble Lord is saying; all I am saying is that if the outcome was as I postulated, and as he accepts is a possibility—not a probability, but a possibility—there are consequences which, unless we think our way through them ahead of the referendum, will come back to haunt us. I put the amendment forward in a constructive spirit, not to try to pull things to bits. I am sure that the words of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will be heard loud and clear in Scotland. I am not trying to pull things to bits; I am trying to feel a way forward so that we can work together. Even if this is not the formula, there needs to be some formula.

On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Proposed Changes to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Wigley

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I do not wish to repeat the arguments that were put in the debate last Thursday which was initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, or indeed in the debate on Friday when we discussed the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. However, the Motion proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is a very sensible one. It is of course a matter for the House of Commons whether it wants to have a Joint Committee but it is also a matter for the Government to provide a lead on what is becoming a highly complex series of interconnected issues.

If, for example, we are to keep the Barnett formula and have English votes for English laws, as it is dubbed, that will have an impact when we come to discuss the Scotland Bill which is before the House of Commons. I wonder what the problem is here that EVEL is trying to solve. I have had a look at the Bills promised in the Queen’s Speech, and only one of them could conceivably be affected by EVEL. That is a buses Bill which gives local mayors—in Manchester, Birmingham or wherever else—the power to run the buses. If I amend that Bill when it comes to this House to include provosts in Scotland, despite it having already been certified as an English Bill, it will go back to the House of Commons as a United Kingdom Bill. There will be no opportunity for the House of Commons to consider the amended Bill in Committee; instead it will be subject to a double vote: one of English MPs and one of the House as a whole.

On Thursday, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, my noble friend the Leader of the House said:

“English MPs cannot overrule the whole House and the whole House cannot overrule English MPs; neither side can force something through without the consent of the other”.—[Official Report, 16/7/15; col. 764.]

That is not the case here. What is happening is that English MPs are being given a veto, which is not what my noble friend described. This is the concern that is being created.

I was talking to a colleague from the other end of the building the other day who said, “We have to have EVEL—look what they have done to us on foxes”. EVEL would make no difference whatever to any vote on foxes, whereas, as my noble friend and others have suggested, reducing the number of Scottish MPs would have an impact on such a vote.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, referred to one thing which really exercises me: at the very last moment, on the revised version, it was made clear that EVEL would apply to finance Bills. Income tax must be about 20% of a Government’s revenue, and that change would mean that a Labour Government, who would perhaps have a majority in the country, would have to have a majority in England in order to get their supply through.

When I was a little boy at school, I was told that the House of Commons was there because it enabled Government to get supply and the consent of the people, and that if a Government could not get supply then it folded. We already have five-year Parliaments and bigger majorities than simple majorities. Now we are adding to that. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, is absolutely right that all these issues must be looked at together so that we have a long-term, stable basis on which to go forward.

On the question of stability, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, also pointed out that the commitment made by William Hague in the last Parliament was that this would be put on a statutory and therefore permanent basis. Amending Standing Orders means that the moment you lose a majority in the House of Commons somebody else can go along and add their version of it. It is not a permanent solution to the problem with which our manifesto was concerned: that we must do something about the fact that we have devolved power to Scotland and English MPs are not able to vote on those issues while Scottish MPs are able to vote on the others.

I hesitate to disagree with my noble friend Lord Wakeham, particularly as it is his 30th wedding anniversary today and he was my former Whip. I have always shown great deference to Whips. On the other hand, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, as Cabinet Secretary was, as I said on Friday, the next thing to God as far as I was concerned when a Minister. Yet Gladstone wrestled with this issue: the whole debate was about “in” and “out”. In the end, they tried all this with Irish votes for Irish laws, British votes for British laws and the rest—and they gave it up. They concluded that the right thing to do was to keep a United Kingdom Parliament and reduce the number of MPs commensurate with the amount being devolved. We have done this for years—we did it with Ulster. When there was more power here, when we had direct rule, they had more Members in the House of Commons Chamber. That works. It has even worked with Scotland. Even Alex Salmond in the last Parliament accepted that there would have to be a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs if there were to be more powers. That is what this very building will discuss over the next period.

The other thing I was taught as a little boy was that constitutional changes to the golf club or anywhere else should be done by consensus. You should not do something that gets one group against you as they will then do that to you when they get the chance. That is why a Joint Committee would be a good opportunity to get consensus. To be fair to the Labour Party, I nearly fell off my chair the other day when listening to the spokesman for the Labour Party in Scotland—their sole MP in Scotland; like us, the party is now outnumbered in Scotland. He said that Labour accepted in principle the question of English votes for English laws. If we agree the principle, then a Joint Committee might be able to get something permanent which will not damage Parliament or help the nationalists—who are making hay. A recent poll in Scotland found that a majority of people had no idea what the Smith commission was about or what the new powers being given to Scotland were but at the same time a big majority felt that those powers did not go far enough. This is what happens if you proceed in a piecemeal manner and move forward on the basis of pressure rather than a coherent, constructive approach.

I am attracted to this idea because the Government have set their face against a constitutional convention. That is unfortunate but when I listened to the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and all the things he would have put into his constitutional convention—it was all to be decided within a year—I began to see the Government’s point of view. If you are to have a constitutional convention, the terms of reference should be narrow and the timescale set. The Government set their face against that. A Joint Committee is an alternative that would enable them to keep control.

In the debate on Thursday, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pretty well said that if the Government do not set up the constitutional convention others will and they will have the resources. We made a big mistake in Scotland not in opposing devolution—we said it would lead to this mess—but in refusing to participate in the constitutional convention. We were not there to make the arguments about the asymmetry that led to this difficulty. We should not repeat that mistake.

When I was a youngster, I used to work in my father’s garage. He once asked me to strip down an engine and put it back together again. I did that but I was left with one bolt at the end, so I had to do it all over again. The Government are in danger of being left with more than one bolt. We need an engine that will take our country forward. I strongly support the noble Lord’s Motion.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, it would be perverse of me not to say that I have every sympathy with English votes for English laws. After all, I want Welsh votes for Welsh laws, and on that basis quite clearly the same should apply for England. However, with regard to the provisions being put forward by the Government, there are questions relating to Wales that have just not been answered. The most fundamental question has to do with the financial implications of the Barnett formula. We had Acts in the last Parliament that were supposed to be England-only, such as the Health and Social Care Act 2012. We are told that 99% of health is totally devolved, yet that Act had a negative effect of £11 million on my local health authority. Because of the way the Barnett formula works, issues arise with regard to cross-border communications between Wales and England.

Quite frankly, these proposals do not start to answer the fundamental questions. If we accept that there will not be independence for Scotland or Wales, certainly within this Parliament, what stable, ongoing constitutional settlement will be able to meet the reasonable aspirations of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but also deliver the English votes for English laws proposal that the Government have in their manifesto? One needs to get the answer right in the long term, not just apply bits of sticking plaster. I am quite prepared to look at any proposals that the Government put forward to move in the right direction on this, but I beg that the Government, and indeed all parties, try to find that long-term stable solution, rather than short-term expediency.