Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

However, let me deal with those who are. Earlier, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, shared with the House a conversation that he alleges he had with the Labour Whips’ Office. I do not know whether it is true, but in my 23 years in the House of Commons conversations with the usual channels and with Whips were sacrosanct. But seeing as how the noble and learned Lord has seen fit to venture into this territory, I shall share, in further defence of our strategy of trying to influence not only the UK Government but the Scottish Government, a statement from the noble and learned Lord to myself at the Bar, which I would not normally share, in which he indicated that the Liberals were going to use the vote on the Crown Estate for election leaflets in the islands. So here we are—the Scotland Bill is reduced to a political gambit for cheap political point-scoring. [Laughter.] The noble Lords may laugh and scoff, but they are the only ones who are doing so. Therefore we are taking the honourable position of trying to influence, not just engaging in gesture politics and staging votes for cheap political points, and we hope that we have influenced the Government—we will see what their response is—and the Scottish Government as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I will briefly speak to Amendments 41 and 42. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for having tabled these amendments and for putting the case so eloquently. We had quite a wide-ranging discussion in Committee and I am very disappointed indeed that the Government have not come forward with proposals—a number of constructive options were suggested.

I have been trying to think of two words to explain the conduct of the Official Opposition over the Bill, and “kowtow” would sum it up. They are utterly terrified to say anything that could be interpreted in any way as not being in line with the Smith proposals or as doing anything that might upset the Scottish Government, which is very disappointing, particularly in the context of this issue.

As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, pointed out, the British Transport Police has for nearly two centuries served our country extremely well. It is a while since I was Secretary of State but I remember the important role it had in ensuring that we were able to cope not just with terrorism but with drug traffickers and other criminals who use the transport network. It is a highly specialised area and it is an act of utter vandalism to break up the British Transport Police in the way that is being proposed.

It is a particularly stupid of the Government to go along with the idea that the British Transport Police should be fragmented and the Scottish element of it included in Police Scotland which, I am sad to say, is in Scotland regarded as something of a joke and a disaster. Prior to the Scottish Government making the changes we had independent police forces operating extremely effectively throughout Scotland. The advocates of devolution decided to take power away from those police forces and centralise them into Police Scotland, and the results have been disastrous as regards communications and operational failures. I place responsibility for this not on the individual members of the police force but on the Scottish Government, who have created this chaos. Both the notion that we should break up the British Transport Police and hand it over to an organisation which has just sacked its chief constable and appointed a new one to sort out its problems, and the amendments which have been put forward by the Labour Party tonight which suggest that we set up a quango to help deal with the problems of implementation and administration, are just breathtaking in the scale of their irresponsibility.

We have no reason to interfere with the operations of the British Transport Police, so what offends the Scottish Government about it? The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, put his finger on it: it could be the B word —the fact that it is called “British”—which offends. However, this is not a Scottish issue but a United Kingdom issue. It is about the security of the United Kingdom as a whole. I very much hope that the Minister will think again about the options which have been put forward in the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about how we can maintain a British force.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

I can understand why the noble Lord makes that point, but the nation and country of Scotland is awaiting the results of these negotiations. Whether the noble Lord likes it or not—and I certainly do not—passing the amendment would send this message to Scotland: “Westminster’s not agreeing. Westminster’s kidding you on. Westminster’s conning you. They don’t mean it and here they are obstructing Scotland yet again”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

All my amendment does is say that we should not proceed with the Committee stage until we have the fiscal framework. It does not say that we should not proceed with the Bill or should not pass it. If the noble Lord’s argument is right, why would it not have been interpreted in the same way when we decided to delay consideration of Parts 2 and 3 until today?

[Lord McAvoy]

The noble Lord will have to accept that I do not agree with him on this, and I do not think he will agree with what I am about to say. The arrangements are designed to facilitate the passage of the Bill and the fiscal framework discussions. Quite frankly, I do not believe that that is the noble Lord’s intention; I believe it is his intention to kill off the discussions.

The atmosphere in Scotland is one of mistrust. I try not to make political points, but the result of the 2015 general election was, I maintain, a direct result of the Prime Minister’s triumphalist press conference in Downing Street the morning after the referendum when he sent the message, “English votes for English laws”, and hostility towards those who had voted yes. There was a sea change in Scotland, where all Labour Party seats were wiped out with the exception of one. We were seen to be conniving and in collusion with a Conservative Prime Minister.

On the other side of the coin, we have got the SNP, with its grievance culture, which is determined to attack Westminster and cast doubt on Westminster’s good intentions—unfairly, because I believe that the intentions here for Scotland are good on both sides of the House. I also think that there was an element of scare story when the noble Lord mentioned that I, the Labour Party and the Conservative Party were terrified of Scots. Terrified of my own people? I respect their desire. I respect their wishes—it is our job to facilitate them—and I believe that that is also the position of the House of Lords.

From the Cross Benches, the noble and learned Lord made it plain that the fiscal framework can still be discussed on Report. This is not a panic measure. This is not ifs, buts or maybes. This is the calmness for which this House is renowned. There will be plenty of opportunity if we can get these discussions to a conclusion. Certainly the indications give hope that we can get the conclusions.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not being able to be here for start of the proceedings. I was away officially on Whips’ business. I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson of Glen Clova for holding the fort so well.

The Bill makes the functions of the British Transport Police a devolved matter. I associate myself with all the praise expressed for the British Transport Police and its record since 1825. I have no hesitation in doing so.

I have only one comment to make about the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. I fully understand where he is coming from; he is ad-libbing about the language situation in Northern Ireland. The situation is a wee bit more hopeful than he has perhaps indicated: there are classes in Irish in solid unionist east Belfast, so there are glimmers of hope.

In the opening contribution from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, he regretted and bemoaned that the Labour Party did not do what he wanted it to do in the Scottish Parliament. I can understand that disappointment and possible resentment, because the Labour Party here had to stand back and watch for five years as the Liberal Democrats backed every vicious and vindictive proposal on welfare put forward by a Conservative Government, with never a word against.

Clause 43 devolves executive competence in relation to the policing of railways in Scotland by specifying as a cross-border authority the British Transport Police Authority, the chief constable of the British Transport Police, the deputy chief constable of the British Transport Police and the assistant chief constable of the British Transport Police. This is in keeping with the Smith agreement, which states:

“The functions of the British Transport Police in Scotland will be a devolved matter”.

That was agreed. I understand also the suspicion and resentment that some Scottish National Party people seem unfortunately to be expressing the desire to get rid of the word “British”. I regret that. If that is their motivation, it does not say much for them, and we should concentrate on the core of the matter.

Designating the British transport bodies as cross-border public authorities means that appointments to the British Transport Police Authority or to the offices of chief constable, deputy chief constable or assistant chief constable will in future be able to be made only in consultation with Scottish Ministers. I know I should not have to say this but it should be on the record: devolution is devolution. You cannot agree the principle of devolution and then object to its effects. Devolution is devolution.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord McAvoy]

The noble Lord was a bit slow to intervene tonight.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, devolution is devolution, but, as was made clear earlier in the debate, this is a matter that affects the security of the whole of the United Kingdom. The noble Lord knows very well that the SNP Justice Minister has indicated that he wants to break up the British Transport Police. Is the Opposition Front Bench really supporting this in the face of all the evidence that has come from the trade unions and the former leaders of the British Transport Police? Surely that is an extraordinary position for it to take.

[Lord McAvoy]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, always takes a keen interest in the position of the Labour Front Bench. The fact is that the Labour Party supports the Smith commission, as do the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Government. There is consensus. I know the noble Lord does not really like being described as a consensual figure—he would probably regard it as an insult—but devolution is devolution and it can, will and should be worked out in that atmosphere. I know the noble Lord is a bit puzzled by that, but I have accepted devolution and he should do the same and move on.

In March last year, as the noble Lord has indicated, the Scottish Justice Secretary signalled the Scottish Government’s intention that the BTP’s functions would be transferred to Police Scotland following the passing of this Bill. Once the power is devolved to the Scottish Government, that is of course a decision for them to make and to justify to the Scottish public, the Scottish electorate and the communities within Scotland. Having said that, in recent months there have been a number of legitimate question marks over the way in which the Scottish Government have chosen to manage the resources of the police force in Scotland since we have had this Police Scotland set-up, with police stations being shut—as my noble friend Lord McFall of Alcluith has mentioned—call centres being closed and much-needed front-line police doing back-office functions. I make it clear that this is no reflection of the phenomenal work that our police officers do on a daily basis. However, we should view this as a further opportunity, and I have no objection to it, at the very least to assess all the possible implications of a merger between Police Scotland and the British Transport Police.

[Lord McAvoy]

I thought I had all the trouble in front of me, but I have some behind me here as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

From everyone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

I made no such suggestion. If the noble Lord would stop looking astonished at every second word that I say, he may understand what I am saying. The Smith commission was a hard process where five parties took part. He is decrying and insulting the good faith of the people who arrived at that conclusion. They spent a long time on it and went into a lot of detail. I believe that they did that in good faith and he should stop denigrating the people involved. The proposal was put through that process and arrived at after long consideration, and I support it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am not denigrating anybody, but I gently remind the noble Lord that quite a few of those who took part in the process are no longer involved in parliamentary affairs. He says that it was agreed by all the parties, but none of the parties was consulted about this. This was a deal and a negotiation. I wager him a bottle of champagne that very few of the people involved in negotiations even knew that the British Transport Police was largely funded by the transport operators. I suggest that that is the case. The complexities involved would be unknown to them.

The noble Lord knows as well as I do that a problem was created after the referendum. People were desperate to find things to devolve. I can just see people saying, “Oh yes, the British Transport Police can be devolved”. The people concerned would not have had a clue about the intricacies of how the British Transport Police was funded. Perhaps the noble Lord is smarter than I am and perhaps he is aware of that, but as Secretary of State I was not aware of the detail of this until I discovered the need to look into it as a result of this amendment. I do not believe for a moment that those people acting in good faith knew the consequences of what was proposed.

Actually, the Smith commission does not require the Government to break up the British Transport Police or to act in the way that is provided in this clause. I ask my noble friend to think again please and perhaps talk to the Scottish Government. There is a compromise to be had that will meet the needs of both sides of the border and the needs of the country as a whole in respect of security—at a time when national security is absolutely at the top of the agenda and the security of our transport systems must be the number one issue of concern.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

To echo the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, I am not a lawyer and will not get into the detail of that. But as we are getting a wee bit into the nitty-gritty, the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and quite a few other Members of this House are in many ways responsible for the attitude in Scotland towards devolution and “getting away from English Tory rule”. I condemn that attitude. The onus is on the Labour Party to win a UK election but the language used and the attitude shown by some Members of your Lordships’ House only confirm to the Scottish National Party that “The English are hostile to us”. I humbly ask that Members of your Lordships’ House be a wee bit more circumspect and not allow the Scottish National Party to portray legitimate concerns as hostility to the existence of a Scottish Parliament. I genuinely urge that.

Several noble Lords have mentioned permanence, which relates directly to what I have attempted to describe—the seeming hostility among many people in England towards Scottish devolution. The permanence issue was agreed in the Smith commission. The commission has been portrayed as politicians deciding things behind closed doors, but there people were behind closed doors with a mandate from the different parties. Getting agreement through the Smith commission was surely an example of delegated democracy at work, because if some things had not been agreed to, there would have been no Smith commission. It is slightly wrong to try to devalue the Smith commission.

The point about permanence is there to reassure the people of Scotland. We can, quite rightly, take the view that it would be impossible or wrong to do, and all the rest of it, but symbolism is important. The clarity of words is important, because we are not all politicians sitting in the House of Lords or even the House of Commons—we are dealing with ordinary folk here. The issue about permanence is completely understandable and gives an assurance. I do not think there is any chance of anybody here in your Lordships’ House or the other place doing down Scotland. I do not believe that. Everybody keeps on saying we have to deal with the political reality, but the reality in Scotland is that many people believe that we here are out to do Scotland down in some way.

In short, we oppose all the amendments—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I will just gently point out to the noble Lord, in relation to his point about the use of language, that throughout the 1980s the Labour Party referred to the Conservative Government as not having a mandate in Scotland. That was the language of nationalism. The nationalists were opposed to devolution, and the Labour Party believed that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead. If symbolism and the Smith commission are so important, why was it that, with the Smith commission and the commitment to implement its recommendations, all three unionist parties in Scotland were reduced to one seat?

[Lord McAvoy]

The emotional state of the Scottish electorate after the Scottish referendum is still to be analysed by a number of people and institutions. I do not know what happened and will be bold enough to say that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, does not know exactly what happened. But it certainly happened. He refers to people in the Scottish Labour Party thinking that nationalism would be killed off by a Scottish Parliament, but I am not one of those. It is about showing the Scottish people that we are trying to do our best for them. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, that a constitutional convention is required. In the long run, it must be required, because these issues keep cropping up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, we have had quite a good debate already—some two hours or more —on Clause 1, but I would like to move Amendment 2. Anticipating what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, would say when he advised us to tread carefully on people’s dreams and anticipating that the Front Bench might not be inclined to listen immediately to the wise words of my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, I tabled Amendment 2, which at least softens the impact of the clause as currently drafted.

The effect would be to introduce after “are” the words “recognised as” so that it would read, “The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are recognised as a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements”. Adding “recognised as” implies that there is another party, which is the sovereign Parliament.

I am looking forward to hearing the Minister explain why he is not prepared to accept the amendment—in the unlikely event that he is not prepared to accept it—because these words were in the original Bill presented to the House of Commons. They were taken out as a result of representations from the Scottish nationalists. The Scottish nationalists may have a mandate in Scotland and they may have a mandate in the House of Commons in that they represent 56 seats—

[Lord McAvoy]

Fifty-four.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, says under his breath, “54”. I do not wish to go into the half-life period of nationalist Members of Parliament and the reasons for their disintegration, but 56 were elected and I will not be tempted down that particular road.

They were elected on a mandate that is destroying the United Kingdom. We had a referendum in which the people of Scotland clearly expressed the view that they wished to remain part of the United Kingdom. I do not buy the argument that we should immediately incorporate into the Bill suggestions from people who do not believe in devolution. The noble Lord, Lord Maxton, was kind enough to point out that the Scottish nationalists were against devolution. I was against devolution. I believed that it would result in a platform for the nationalists that would eventually threaten the existence of the United Kingdom. I am sorry to say that that has proved to be the case. Alex Salmond voted against devolution and was against it because he shared the view of the Labour Party that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead. It is true that we were both against the constitutional convention, but for different reasons. The nationalists, of course, proved to be luckier than their judgment. So the Government have taken out “recognised as” and we now come back to what exactly the Government are doing with their political statements. Are these political statements words that are meant to appease the nationalists, but they do not mean what we say they mean? That was a point made in the previous debate.

I say to my noble and learned friend the Minister that we can vote in Committee. We choose not to vote in Committee so that Ministers have an opportunity to listen to the debate and come back with their thoughts and reflections. They might not necessarily come back with thoughts and reflections in line with the representations that have been made. But if Ministers are not prepared at the Dispatch Box to listen to well-argued arguments and instead say at this stage in Committee that they are not prepared to go away and think about it, perhaps we need to start thinking about dividing the Committee. My noble friend the Chief Whip is not in his place, but it is not unreasonable, in return for not seeking to divide the Committee, that Ministers should listen to the arguments and give a clear undertaking that they are prepared to consider them and come back on reflection.

In moving the amendment, I am simply requesting that the Government put back into the clause the words that they themselves thought necessary when they introduced the Bill to the House of Commons, particularly in the light of the vigorous debate we have had and the concerns that have been expressed. Including the words “recognised as” would at least offer some respite to those of us who feel that we may be pulling the wool over the eyes of the electorate with the clause as it stands.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester told us that it would be absolutely disastrous in Scotland to change the clause. I think it would be even more disastrous to present a fraudulent clause that gives a false impression of the position and could be a source of bitterness in future years. After all, we won the referendum campaign as “Better Together”; we do not want to end up as “bitter together”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I hope I will get a bit of a break after this one. Having argued earlier that it was completely inappropriate to use legislation to write political graffiti—which is what the Government are doing—I reluctantly came to the conclusion that we would perhaps be unable to persuade the Government to rub it out. This amendment, therefore, adds some graffiti of my own. It does what I have been saying we should not do, which is to use legislation to make declaratory statements. However, the declaratory statements included in the Bill as it stands are so misleading that it is essential to add this amendment which simply adds, after line 17, the words:

“Nothing in this section alters the sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament”.

I have not been counting, but I have heard my noble and learned friend say that so many times. As he has argued that it is necessary to have declaratory statements in the legislation for a political purpose, that there is nothing wrong with it and that there are precedents for it; and as he has said over and again that nothing in this Bill alters the sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament, I am looking forward to him accepting the amendment with enthusiasm.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, is it not the case that the sovereignty of the UK Parliament is already protected by Section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998, which provides that the UK Parliament can always legislate for Scotland?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The Marquess of Lothian. I am sorry. My noble friend has had so many names that I find it difficult to keep up. If we are to take the Government at their word—I always do, of course—they have said that it is necessary to have in the Bill a piece of declaratory legislation that makes it clear that the Scottish Parliament enjoys permanence, but at the same time the sovereignty of this Parliament remains unaffected, then the two should be put together and put in the Bill. For lawyers to argue that if you read a particular section and interpret it in a particular way, it means something else, simply will not do in the context of a view that it is necessary to write graffiti on legislation. I do not think that the Government should be doing that at all. However, if they are doing it, then what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I am very disappointed that my optimism has proved confounded, but I will certainly want to return to the matter.

[Lord McAvoy]

The noble Lord is trying to paint a picture of government intransigence. As the Government’s Official Opposition, as distinct from the unofficial opposition, I suggest that one cannot complain when changes are made in the other place thanks to debate, and the Government see the worthiness of that and accept it, and then complain because they do not accept the noble Lord’s amendment. I think he is painting a totally unfair picture of the Government.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

For a moment, when the noble Lord referred to the Official Opposition and the unofficial opposition, I thought he was referring to the new leader of the Labour Party. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, on this occasion we cannot support the proposal in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. Elections to the Scottish Parliament will not be able to be held on the same day as the UK general election or a European parliamentary election. Under the Scotland Act 1998, an election must take place on the first Thursday in May in the fourth calendar year. However, Scottish elections are fully devolved matters. When elections are held is a decision for the Scottish Government, other than the restrictions I highlighted. Unfortunately for the noble Lord—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Is the noble Lord really saying that it could possibly be acceptable for a devolved legislature, perhaps dominated by one party, to have the power, having won an election, to decide that the next election would not be for seven years? That would be a completely unacceptable use of the powers of a devolved Administration. Why is he so opposed to having an amendment to the legislation to eliminate that possibility?

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, when you have devolution, you have devolution. The noble Lord poses a potential situation that is totally unrealistic. I do not think it would happen. Any behaviour like that from a devolved Assembly anywhere in the United Kingdom would be punished by that electorate. Devolution is devolution. I do not want to get contentious at this time of night but I think the noble Lord’s attitude is coloured by a continuing non-acceptance of the principle of devolution. You cannot devolve power and then try to dictate to that Parliament what to do—it is not feasible. I do not see it happening anywhere in the United Kingdom, through any devolved Assembly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord will recall that we already extended the life of the Scottish Parliament from four to five years, I think on one or even two occasions.

[Lord McAvoy]

I really do not think that is a fair comparison.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My noble friend is as helpful as ever.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Keep going.

[Lord McAvoy]

Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, shouts encouragement to me. The facts of life are that we are in a very complicated situation. It would be foolish for anyone—me, my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan, or even, dare I say, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean—to make specific, hard-line declarations of what is to be expected, when it should happen and what we do if it does not happen.

I believe that there is good faith—I have no reason to think otherwise—in the discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government. Your Lordships’ House should remember that the onus is on the UK Government to come up with a negotiated deal but the onus is also on the Scottish Government to come up with a deal. The people of Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom—not unanimously but there was a lot of support for the vote—so there are strictures awaiting anyone who plays games with these very important negotiations. It is not often I say this but I believe we have to trust the Government and the Scottish Government to deliver for the Scottish people.

The Labour Party supported many of the amendments that the Government brought forward in the other place, not least because the concessions had been debated thoroughly. However, that was not true for all the amendments, particularly those concerning the devolution of abortion law. I put on record that our concern is not about the issue of abortion—as we all know, that is different from constitutional matters—but about process. We will be calling for extensive consultation with relevant groups and representatives in Scotland to see what support there is for this proposal. This is not a reflection on the Scottish Government; this is about following the advice of the Smith commission.

Beyond these issues, we will be keen to debate a number of the transport provisions, most notably those surrounding the British Transport Police. Clause 43 follows the recommendation of the Smith commission that the functions of the British Transport Police should be devolved; but not to abolish them, which is what is being proposed by the Scottish Government, who want to transfer the existing functions of the British Transport Police to Police Scotland—more centralisation. This news has been met with strong criticism from trade unions and British Transport Police itself. This is something that we will explore in Committee.

We also intend to extend the Scottish Government’s capacity to bring about equality, particularly in relation to the functions of Scottish and cross-border authorities. That means increasing the accountability of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to the Scottish Parliament. This House has an excellent record of bringing about greater levels of equality in public life.

The final point to make on specific areas of the Bill that we hope to improve is about the Crown Estate, which again will be the subject of much debate in Committee. Although we are largely supportive of the measures the Government have brought forward, we seek clarification on a number of issues, which we will do in Committee. There are issues that need to be examined.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord—I can tell he is reaching the end of his remarks. Could he have a go, on behalf of the Official Opposition, at explaining to us how the second no-detriment principle will work?

[Lord McAvoy]

Your Lordships’ House should be aware that I was sitting here a few minutes ago, before I started, wishing that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, would ask that question. The noble Lord was a driving force in imposing the poll tax in Scotland, which was certainly to the detriment of Scotland. He did not give any consideration to the detriment to his country then. I am really glad that the noble Lord asked that question.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

And the answer is?

[Lord McAvoy]

The answer is that we will not support anything that we know is detrimental to our nation—unlike the noble Lord during the poll tax debacle.

The passage of the Bill through your Lordships’ House was always going to strike a different tone from its passage in the other place—the noble Lord has confirmed that—for a variety of reasons that I mentioned during the start of my speech. However, the concessions made on Report and the acceptance of amendments from Labour and other opposition parties has meant that the Bill, as drafted, delivers the vow in full. That has to be stated time and time again.

Your Lordships’ House has a genuine opportunity to focus on the detail of the Bill and to ensure that it meets the standards that the Scottish people deserve. This is what your Lordships’ House does best, and I caution those on the outside who snigger at or demonise the work that we can do in this Chamber, with insults such as “unelected cronies” and all the rest of it. As we set out to engage in a thorough, detailed and thoughtful debate, which has at its core the very best interests of the Scottish people, I am sure your Lordships’ House will live up to that. I am proud of a lot of what the House of Lords can achieve through the scrutiny and revision of legislation. I am also a proud Scot. Whatever people may say, these two facts are not contradictory.

The Bill is a real opportunity to provide a stable, durable devolution settlement and gives the Parliament the capacity to create a fairer, more prosperous Scotland. Once it has finished its passage through your Lordships’ House, we must turn our attention to ensuring that all these new powers are devolved and, crucially, to how they can be used. In the mean time, as always, there is more that can be done. We support the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, and I am proud of that, just as the noble Baroness is proud of her origins. My mother used to polish the cars so that they were gleaming in the sunlight, in the hope that someone would come in to buy them.

So we have the Bill: all beautifully presented and put together. I do not think that my father would have got very far if he had tried to sell a car by saying, “I am terribly sorry, you can’t look at the engine. I can’t tell you about the gearbox. In fact, there might not be an engine—actually, it is confidential. But once you’ve bought the car, we can tell you whether the engine works, whether the gearbox works and whether the software works”. That is what we are being asked to do on the Bill: “We can’t possibly tell you about the fiscal framework”, which is the guts of the Bill, “because it is confidential. We are discussing it with the SNP. By the way, we are getting on very well; we have a long record of getting on very well with them”.

I thought that my noble friend Lord Dunlop had given me an assurance, in a private meeting back in the early part of the summer, that the Bill would not be introduced to this House without the fiscal framework. However, because I know the ways of the Civil Service, and of the Treasury and Governments, I thought that I would table a Written Question. I tabled it on 9 July—remember July? It was a long time ago. I asked Her Majesty’s Government,

“when they plan to publish the new fiscal framework agreed with the Scottish Government”.

The Answer I got was:

“The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Deputy First Minister met on 8 June where they agreed that they would aim to conclude negotiations on the fiscal framework that will underpin the financial provisions of the Scotland Bill by the autumn, in tandem to the timetable for the Bill”.

I thought that Answer was not quite consistent with what I thought my noble friend Lord Dunlop had said, so I put down another Question. I asked,

“whether they plan to take any stages of the Scotland Bill in the House of Lords before the fiscal framework has been agreed and published”.

The Answer I got on 22 July was:

“The Government intends to progress the negotiations on the fiscal framework in parallel with the Scotland Bill. At their meeting on 7 July, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Deputy First Minister re-affirmed their aim to conclude negotiations on the fiscal framework by the autumn”.

Now is the winter of our discontent not made glorious summer by my noble friend. When I was in school, “in parallel” meant “alongside each other”. How can it be “in parallel” with the House of Commons when the Bill has left that House? In his speech, my noble friend said that the Bill was unopposed at Third Reading. Third Reading in the other place took all of 10 minutes, with the fiscal framework not known.

Of course, I understand the political difficulties that afflict my noble friend and the Government. We have heard a great deal about this amazing vow. I do not normally recommend the Daily Record for reading, but I recommend looking at its report on the anniversary of the vow on 17 September, where the editor says that it was all his idea. It was invented by him: he rang up Gordon Brown and said, “Gordon, can you get the other party leaders to do this and we will put it on the front page?”. Indeed, the description of the vow was not that of the party leaders but invented by a tabloid journalist. Noble Lords can imagine my astonishment on hearing this when we got evidence to our committee from a distinguished academic who told me that the vow was the nearest thing we had in Scotland to Magna Carta. So there we have it: the Daily Record is better than Magna Carta.

If we look at this vow—this vow which is of such importance—it contains the sentence:

“And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament”.

That is what it said when it was signed by David Cameron, who is still a leader, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg—both of whom have since disappeared, leaving us to sort out the problem. It is illiterate and completely wrong. How can you say that spending on the health service would be “protected” because of the Barnett formula and the tax-raising powers? The whole point about the Barnett formula is that the amount of money that goes to Scotland for health is determined by what is decided in England. That is why the report of the Economic Affairs Committee is right to emphasise that we need to move away from Barnett towards a needs-based system if Scotland is to get the share of grant that represents its needs. The whole thing—this clash between the Barnett formula and the impact of the tax-raising powers—is based on something put together by a tabloid journalist.

We then had the argument that we cannot delay the Bill and need to get on with it. This has been the problem all along. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, the Smith commission and the work that he did on it. However, I cannot think of any time in our history—perhaps we could go back to Henry VIII—when three privy counsellors could sit down and agree something that then had the force of law. Normally, Governments—the Executive—have to go to Parliament: it is a matter for Parliament, not Governments, to decide the fiscal framework. The only part of our parliamentary process in these islands now that seems to understand that—irony of irony—is the Scottish nationalists, who are saying, “We want to see the fiscal framework and the Bill. We are only prepared to consider them together and if we don’t think it works in a fair way, we will reject it”. It is a situation that has been denied to the House of Commons.

I would like to pick up the noble Lord, Lord Smith, on one point. In his foreward to the Smith commission report—there is a picture of him on the front—he says, under “A more autonomous Parliament”:

“The Scottish Parliament will be made permanent in UK legislation and given powers over how it is elected and run … The Parliament will also have the power to extend the vote to 16 and 17 year olds—”

So it goes on, using “will”. I am sorry, but it should perhaps say “should” or “we recommend that it might”. Whether or not it does is a matter for this Parliament—not for the Smith commission or the Government, but for Parliament. It is right that Parliament should have the opportunity to look at it.

I will make one final comment, because I realise that I am over my time. By the way, that is another disgrace: for us to be limited to six minutes on a major constitutional change is quite ridiculous.

[Lord McAvoy]

Before he sits down, could the noble Lord perhaps give us his understanding of no detriment?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

God bless the man: I have an excuse to speak for another six minutes. First, all the evidence that we had from our witnesses—it is all on the internet; people can read it and it is available in the Printed Paper Office—is that no detriment is completely unworkable. The report says that if on either side of the border, a change of policy results in a change in the money available to either side, the other side should compensate it. I will give an example. When I was Secretary of State, they privatised water in England. In Scotland, my noble friend Lord Lang decided that we were in enough trouble; he did not privatise water. As a result, of course, Scotland no longer got the Barnett consequences of the public expenditure on water in England, because it was charged, and we had to find from within the Scottish block the money to pay for water.

My understanding of the no-detriment principle, if it means what it says on paper, is that in similar circumstances under the new arrangements, if in England they decided to privatise or stop doing something and that resulted in a lesser grant to Scotland through the part related to the Barnett formula, then England would have to send Scotland a cheque. That seems to be rather unworkable. The idea that because England, say, had privatised water, it should send a cheque to the Scots to enable them to continue with a state-run, inefficient system, does not seem to be practical politics. I might have got this completely wrong, but every time I ask the Minister or the author or its exponents what it means, they say, “This is a matter for negotiation and we cannot possibly comment, because it has all been done on a secret basis”. It is just not acceptable to proceed beyond Committee until we have answers to this and many other questions that I will seek to elucidate for my noble friend by tabling lots of amendments.

Queen’s Speech

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McAvoy

Monday 1st June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I associate the Labour Benches with the tributes to the three maiden speakers today. They provided terrific entertainment. Great skill, expertise and commitment were shown by all three, and they were very much appreciated by the whole House.

Labour has committed to ensuring that the vow, as it has become known, is delivered in full, and that means keeping the Barnett formula alongside more powers to make the Scottish Parliament one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. However, we cannot sit on the sidelines and allow the Conservative Government’s social security cuts to target the most vulnerable in our society and drive more children into poverty. Labour will seek to amend the Scotland Bill to give the Scottish Parliament the final say on welfare and benefits.

Labour amendments to the Scotland Bill would give the Scottish Parliament the power to top up UK benefits and create new benefits of Scotland’s own. Scotland would then have the powers to defend the vulnerable against Tory austerity while retaining the UK-wide pooling and sharing of resources offered by the Barnett formula. Labour’s proposals would therefore protect Scotland from Conservative welfare cuts so there could never be another bedroom tax in Scotland supported by the Liberals and the Conservatives. Labour’s proposals would also protect Scotland from any benefits cuts caused by a fall in Scottish funding, due, for example, to the collapse in the oil industry, the inevitable consequence of the nationalists’ plan for full fiscal autonomy. This will deliver the security of a UK pensions and benefits system plus the power for Scotland to top up UK benefits and create new benefits specific to Scotland because the Scottish Parliament would have the financial freedom to support this. If Scotland loses the pooling and sharing of resources across the UK—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know the hour is late, but could the noble Lord tell us where the money is coming from?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

It will be entirely a matter for the Scottish Parliament to raise the money. You ask a question, you get the answer. If Scotland lost that pooling, there would be an additional £7.6 billion gap in Scotland’s funding.

During the general election in Scotland, the SNP First Minister indicated that they wanted full fiscal autonomy and control of everything in Scotland. Then the penny dropped and it became that full fiscal autonomy would need to be negotiated over a period of years, so that cat is out of the bag.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I thought the noble Lord was describing the Labour Party’s policy, but he seems to be articulating the SNP’s policy. He is not really explaining where the money would come from in order to provide these benefits, the protections, not having to pay the bedroom tax and the rest. We have just had an election campaign in which his party took a considerable defeat on its economic policy. How can he possibly advocate this?

[Lord McAvoy]

We have taken a defeat. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, indicated that we were defeated because of our economic policy. There were many reasons for our defeat, which we will deal with and hopefully fix in the future. The combination of the Barnett formula and the tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliament will be entirely up to it. If it does not have the money to do these things, it will not do them. It is our policy to make sure that it has the choice to do so, and that is the difference.

Devolution is about all of the United Kingdom. The Labour Party and I endorse Ivan Lewis’s statement that there is a duty on all parties within the Stormont Parliament to come to a responsible arrangement. We urge them all to do so. We also urge the Government to play a part in bringing these folk together as well.

Labour supports measures to put Welsh devolution on a stronger statutory basis, as in Scotland. We agree with taking forward proposals from the Silk commission and extending the power the people of Wales have over their transport, elections and energy. Wales must not be unfairly disadvantaged by the Barnett formula. The previous Government cut the Welsh budget by £1.5 billion, so this Government must ensure a fair funding settlement for Wales by introducing a funding floor, and we are glad to hear that that is what they are proposing. The measures that are expected to be put into the Wales Bill transfer new powers to Wales by implementing the agreed settlement for Wales and handing over more responsibility to the Welsh Assembly.

I am trying to paint the picture that devolution is not just about Scotland. Scotland is naturally taking all the headlines at the moment, but for devolution to work it must work for the United Kingdom.

I shall deal with one or two things that cropped up in the debate. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton cleared the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, of any guilt concerning the poll tax. My view is that if somebody is in the Scotland Office, I believe in collective guilt, so with one bound he is not free. I am still waiting to hear a complete denial of that.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, had a very lucid, shrewd perspective, urging the SNP to nominate. I thought it was a very useful contribution: a voice comes from the non-political world, urging the SNP to get involved. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, has made some credible criticisms of the Labour Party over the past few years. I am not saying that I accept them, but they are credible and must be answered. He has some questions to answer himself, for instance about the performance of his Prime Minister on the steps of Downing Street on the morning after the referendum, with his quite disgraceful party-political broadcast on English votes on English laws, thereby giving the Scottish National Party the justification for saying that all unionist parties lied to the people of Scotland to get their vote and then withdrew everything else for it. He altered at a stroke the outcome of that referendum. It was a defeat for the SNP, but Mr Cameron’s intervention helped to turn it into a victory for them. In addition, the Prime Minister compounded it by the scare tactics of using the SNP in England to get votes by frightening people in England about how Scotland was going to take over—Mr Miliband in Salmond’s pocket, and all the rest of it. Therefore if there is some reckoning to be had, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, should be knocking on the door of No. 10 and making his point of view heard. Knowing him as I do, he has probably been there already.

I also picked up on the issue of voting systems. I was quite surprised to hear my two noble friends Lady Adams of Craigielea and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock indicate, in all honesty, that perhaps a look should be taken at the voting systems. However, the votes study, which the noble Lord, Lord Flight, mentioned and my noble friend Lord Gordon of Strathblane analysed, does not give a clear picture that the problem would be solved by the introduction of the Liberals’ holy grail of proportional representation. My noble friend Lord Gordon destroyed that case—it is not a clear picture. We are all interested in tackling the problems; all the Liberals can talk about is proportional representation, which gets quite boring.