Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, these regulations will bring misery to the lives of millions of our fellow citizens. We know now what lockdowns do from our experience in the spring and from that of other countries which took the same course.
Jobs are destroyed and perfectly good businesses are forced to close their doors for the last time. Anxiety, depression, mental illness, suicides and domestic abuse increase, as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, pointed out. Lives are lost as screening programmes are disrupted and people are fearful of going to hospital. Young people’s education is disrupted, their employment prospects blighted and their career paths distorted. The elderly are separated from their families and grandchildren as they ponder their own mortality. There is a cruelty here too, in cutting off folk in nursing homes from family visits, banning weddings and denying people the comfort of religious observance and the chance to join immediate families to mourn the passing of friends and relatives.
Tax revenues evaporate, and we add to the burden of our children a legacy of eye-watering debt. The deficit is now heading to £400 billion and probably on to half a trillion. Parliamentary democracy is a casualty too, as most of us in this debate get three minutes to speak, late at night, on the merits of nothing less than the shutting down of the entire economy and these extraordinary assaults on our liberty and prosperity. Who would have thought Ministers and officials would start telling people whom they can sleep with? The decisions are taken by folk in secure public sector employment, with inflation-proof pensions and good salaries. The highest price is paid by the poorest and those whose livelihoods depend on enterprise and the ability to make a profit. Lockdowns are the midwives of inequality.
Occasionally you see signs in shops saying, “If you break it, you pay for it”. I believe this applies to the Government today. It is irresponsible to present these regulations to Parliament without having done any analysis of the costs and means for mitigating all the consequences of their actions. I am grateful to Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO for succeeding where I failed through parliamentary questions in getting an answer from my right honourable friend Robert Jenrick MP, who told her it was unfair to ask whether the Government had done a cost-benefit analysis of the consequences of lockdown. After very robust interrogation, he admitted that he had not seen one, because it did not exist.
Again and again, Ministers rightly say they have to balance lives against livelihoods, but to achieve balance you need to weigh both sides of the scale. We are told that the models say we have no alternative, as the NHS will be overwhelmed. We of course have a duty to take this very seriously, but the Explanatory Memorandum for these regulations says the Government are assuming an R rate of 1.1 to 1.3. Professor Tim Spector from King’s College has suggested that R is now one in England and the UK as a whole, and Professor Heneghan from Oxford University says the infection rate in Liverpool is falling from a run rate of 490 a day over seven days to 269 and the R value is well below one, a point that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, may not have noticed. It seems the Government’s tiered approach is not only hurting but working.
The last financial crisis was caused by groupthink and people believing models which told them they could convert lead into gold at the expense of common sense. Then, the poorest paid the price, and those responsible became very rich. The fact that we were all scared by headlines over the weekend telling us that 4,000 people a day would die, and learned within hours that this came from a discredited model which predicted four times as many deaths as occurred in real life on 1 November, is worrying to say the least. With all models, the rule is very simple: garbage in, garbage out.
We also know that, once implemented, lockdowns are hard to exit. On Saturday the Prime Minister told us it would be for a strictly limited period, until 2 December. In less than 24 hours, Michael Gove was telling Andrew Marr it could be extended. When asked about this yesterday, Professor Whitty said:
“I think that the aim of this is to get the rates down far enough that it’s a realistic possibility to move into a different state of play at that point in time.”
What are people running businesses meant to do? Do they listen to the PM and take on more debt to survive another month if they can, or do they conclude, after listening to Mr Gove and Professor Whitty, that they should throw in the towel?
The Chancellor has done brilliantly, but he knows we are heading for Carey Street. What will this lockdown cost—perhaps £12.5 billion for furlough and the self-employed alone? He will need to extend the £20 a week standard allowance for universal credit from April. When folk who thought they were in secure jobs—say, on £25,000 a year—discover that they are not eligible for universal credit because they have savings or a working partner, his colleagues in the Commons with be inundated with constituents worried about how to pay their bills and feed their families. Where will he find the money for health, welfare and social care, and for the job creation initiatives that will be needed? To paraphrase Tacitus, we will have created a desert and called it protecting the health service.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
At end insert “but that this House regrets that no impact assessment has been published which sets out the (1) number of jobs lost, (2) businesses permanently destroyed, (3) costs to taxpayers, and (4) consequences for mental and physical health, of a national lockdown; and regrets that Her Majesty’s Government have not provided a strategy for the lifting of the restrictions put in place to address the COVID-19 pandemic.”
Social Care
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years ago)
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Lord Bethell (Con)
Talks are happening in the background in many ways. I cannot give the noble Baroness a precise date, because our focus is very much on managing Covid and learning its lessons, including from the CQC report that the noble Baroness rightly pointed out. But this is a massive priority both for the Government and for opposition parties, and I can reassure the noble Baroness that it will be taken on board at the soonest possible moment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, further to the question from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle, the Economic Affairs Committee of this House produced a report on social care that had all-party support and was universally welcomed across the House. That was in July 2019—14 months ago. There has been no proper government response and no opportunity to debate it. How much longer must people in desperate need have to wait for the Government to reach a conclusion? I say to my noble friend that Covid is not an excuse for procrastination but an imperative for urgent action.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, we all acknowledge the power and intellectual insight of the Economic Affairs Committee report, which was welcomed on the Floor of the House and speaks for itself in terms of its authority and insight. But my noble friend is, I am afraid, not being reasonable when he says that Covid is not an excuse for inaction. There is an enormous focus on the front line and by the management of the NHS and the DHSC on preparing the winter plan, which is ambitious but also extremely stretching. There simply is not the management or political capacity to take on a major generational reform of the entire industry in the midst of this massive epidemic.
Coronavirus Act 2020: Temporary Provisions
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, I agree with everything that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, had to say about parliamentary involvement, but in defence of Cromwell, it was not Cromwell who abolished Christmas but the Parliament.
I asked my noble friend the Minister in the debate on Friday on the coronavirus regulations if he was confident that the Government were acting legally in using the public health Act to restrict the liberties of uninfected people and to close down uncontaminated businesses. I pointed out to him that I could not see powers in the public health Act to do so. I listened to him today and ask him: what happened to the assurances given by his department, the Department of Health, in 2008 to your Lordships’ Constitution Committee that these powers were exercisable only in relation to infected individuals and were intended to authorise only provisions which were
“urgent yet minor in scope and effect”?
I asked him why the Government were not using the Civil Contingencies Act, which, under Section 22(3), empowers Ministers to
“make provision of any kind that could be made by Act of Parliament”.
Examples given in the legislation include regulations which prohibit movement to or from a specific place, assemblies at specific places or times and travel at specific times. The difference is, of course, that the Civil Contingencies Act requires robust parliamentary scrutiny. Emergency regulations must be laid before Parliament in draft before they are made and will lapse unless they are approved by both Houses within seven days. They are subject to renewal every 30 days, and Parliament can amend them at any time.
I asked my noble friend if the motivation for resorting to the public health Act, which has no such protections, was to enable the Executive to avoid scrutiny and parliamentary debate. He did not reply, and, under the bizarre rules we have, I was unable to intervene. Regulations made under the public health Act do not require approval for 28 days, plus any recess period, and cannot be amended or, if approved, revoked. They remain in force for as long as Ministers like.
I am not a lawyer, so, over the weekend, I contacted Lord Sumption for his advice, and am very grateful to him for sending me a memorandum which sets out the position very clearly. I have his permission to share it. I am told I cannot place it in the Library unless the Minister agrees, but I would be happy to send it to anyone who would like to read it.
My noble friend Lord Bethell did tell me, as he has repeated today, that the Civil Contingencies Act is
“expressly concerned with threats that we could not have expected. Unfortunately, we are at a stage with this epidemic—indeed, even at the very beginning of the epidemic—where the lawyers have judged that this kind of regulation does not fit under that definition”.—[Official Report, 25/9/20; col. 2026.]
The Act applies to emergencies, which are defined as
“an event or situation which threatens serious damage to human welfare”
in a place in the United Kingdom.
I say to my noble friend that he needs to get some better lawyers, and colleagues with more respect for Parliament. Under the CCA, which applies to the United Kingdom as a whole, he would have avoided different rules in different parts of the UK, and the First Minister of Scotland adding to public confusion.
Today, once again, we are not even being allowed a substantive vote. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Robathan for his Motion, which I will support, in protest at the cavalier way in which parliamentary democracy in our country is being suffocated. Our economy is being trashed; public expenditure, out of control; good businesses, destroyed; thousands of patients, denied life-saving treatment; disabled people, unsupported; our children’s future, mortgaged and damaged; the people’s mental health and welfare, put at risk; and this House and the other place remain marginalised and impotent. As Edmund Burke put it in 1780:
“Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.”
Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) Regulations 2020
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, this time last week when we were debating other regulations under this legislation, I talked about the strange death of parliamentary democracy in our country, and nothing that has happened since has done anything but reinforce my view. I heard on the radio this morning that students in Glasgow are being told that they have to self-isolate in their rooms, that they are not allowed to go home and that they may be there until Christmas. These powers are being exercised by regulations which are being made using the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act. This Act gives the Government power only to restrict the movements of people who are believed to be infectious and to close infected premises. As far as I can see, it does not provide the power to control people who are not infected or to close uncontaminated premises. If the Government want to exercise controls of this kind over people who are not infected, they have the power to do so using the Civil Contingencies Act. But, quite properly, that legislation requires that the consent of Parliament is obtained within seven days of any regulation and is renewed every 30 days.
Last week, my noble friend talked about being in a war-type situation where urgent action was required. That is exactly what the Civil Contingencies Act provides for. Have the Government used the public health Act improperly in order to avoid parliamentary scrutiny and created today’s farce where, as he has just indicated, we are debating regulations that were made seven weeks ago and which have already been superseded while being unable to control those that are in force now?
My noble friend apologised for cluttering up the Order Paper. Cluttering up the Order Paper is all that is happening here. There is no proper scrutiny. We cannot vote against these regulations and we have the farce of being asked to consider them after they have been superseded with only two minutes to do so.
Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, we are witnessing the strange death of parliamentary democracy in this country. There is no other way to describe the charade in which we are involved today. Many of these regulations, as so many colleagues have pointed out, have long since taken effect. What are we meant to do? This is government by press release; in some cases, as pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the regulations had taken effect even before they were laid. Why are we not discussing the rule of six regulations today? That is the issue of the day—why are we not discussing it? Why do we not even know the date on which they will happen?
Why do we have a Minister who does not even have the courtesy to turn up to the House to deal with these important regulations and who does not answer questions? We had a Statement earlier this week; I asked why the rules were different in Scotland and in England and what it was about English children that made them more likely to be a risk. My noble friend the Minister said in his reply that
“we celebrate the differences between our two nations in this.”—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1006.]
I do not celebrate the differences which mean that I cannot visit my grandchildren in London, but they could get in a taxi, on the Tube, or on a plane or a train and come to Scotland perfectly legally. How do you explain that to people? What prevents the Government getting together the various Chief Medical Officers from the devolved regions, agreeing a common policy and implementing it, if it is all supposed to be based on scientific evidence?
Furthermore, when asked difficult questions such as the one from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who asked a very reasonable question about his family, the Minister replied:
“that is the pub-quiz question of all pub-quiz questions”—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1004.]
and referred him to the regulations. There is no accountability for what the Government are doing. Parliament is being bypassed. We are not in a position to debate these regulations; we cannot intervene in speeches; it is absolutely unsatisfactory and needs to be put right.
Covid-19 Update
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the amount of testing we are doing is increasing enormously. Most people who book a test do get it locally, and that test is delivered quickly and on time. The result arrives within 24 hours and we are doing a million tests a week, which is well within the bounds of our business capacity.
The noble Lord is right that the system is under scrutiny and pressure. Not everyone is getting a test where and when they want it. However, overall, it is reasonable to ask people not to make frivolous demands upon the tests, and to ask that those who are asymptomatic wait until there is further test capacity before they step forward to ask for their test.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me what the Government have identified in English children under 12, including babies, that makes them, to use his phrase, “a vector of infection and a Covid hazard”, that does not apply to children in Scotland, who have been back at school for weeks? And on the subject of making things easier to understand—simplifying matters—why is it okay in England to meet one’s grandchildren in the pub but not in their family home if the household consists of six people?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, Scottish children are just the same as English children, but the Scottish Government have decided to take a different approach; we celebrate the differences between our two nations in this. With respect to meeting in the pub, you cannot meet more than six people in the pub and you cannot meet more than six people between two households. The arithmetic is reasonably straightforward.
Independent Residential Care
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Bethell [V]
The noble Baroness is entirely right that the issue of excess beds is an unfortunate and unwelcome added pressure on an already pressured system. Sir Simon Stevens was echoing the sentiments of the Government and the Secretary of State when he said that we need to move towards a long-term settlement for social care. That was very much the commitment of the Prime Minister during the election and in the manifesto. Steps have been taken towards working on that but we have been interrupted by Covid-19. It remains a number one priority for the Government. In the meantime, we will be putting in the financial resources necessary to provide the resilience for those smaller homes of which the noble Baroness speaks.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
My Lords, does my noble friend think it reasonable that, 12 months after the Economic Affairs Committee produced the report Social Care Funding: Time to End a National Scandal, we have not had a debate on the report or a response from the Government? He talks about providing resources for social care. That report identified an £8 billion gap just to get back to the standards we had in 2010. Does he not think that instead of the occupants of Nos. 10 and 11 Downing Street standing on their doorsteps and putting their hands together to clap the achievements of social care workers, their hands should be put in the Treasury’s pocket to find the money now urgently needed to prevent the collapse of nursing homes and to prevent us continuing to rely on the good will and hard work of people who are being pressed beyond endurance? This delay cannot go on longer and longer, which has been the pattern for the last decade.
Lord Bethell [V]
My noble friend asks the question extremely well. The Lords Economic Affairs Committee report is an extremely thoughtful and respected piece of work. Under normal circumstances we would certainly have had that debate and moved forward on this incredibly important issue, which was flagged both in the election and in the manifesto as a major government priority. However, I cannot hide from my noble friend that the Covid epidemic has disrupted progress, particularly on this delicate issue, which requires a huge amount of management time by senior healthcare officials, who are utterly consumed by Covid at the moment. Please be under no illusion that this is a major priority for the Government. Once the preparations for winter are in place, it will be at the top of the list.
Social Distancing: Two-metre Rule
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Bethell [V]
The noble Lord’s maths is entirely right. That is why we are moving cautiously in this area, despite many people’s concerns and despite the profound effect on industries such as the hospitality industry, which we regret enormously. However, the main focus is to drive down the infection rate. If we can get the prevalence levels down sufficiently, social distancing will not be required any further, and it is on that target that we are focusing.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]
Do the Government accept that each day’s delay in reducing the two-metre rule will result in needless redundancies, that many of these jobs will go in the next few days and will not be replaced in the short term, and that we cannot wait weeks for a review? Failure to act now will see the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs, and that will hang like an albatross around the neck of the Administration.
Covid-19 Update
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, following the comment of my noble friend Lord Bridges on IR35, which will impose huge costs and burdens on small businesses and entrepreneurs, would it not be sensible for the Government to defer its implementation? More importantly, it is obvious that these measures are going to result in a deep recession in this country. Many good businesses are going to go to the wall, unless they are helped with their cash flow. Declaring an interest as a banker, I know that the banks will want to extend credit to those businesses, but the regulatory rules and the senior managers regime prevent them from doing so. Of course public health is the most important thing, but it is of the utmost importance that the Government enable the banks to provide support for those businesses, and that they recognise that the Budget package, welcome as it is, is a mere flea-bite compared to what is required—and required now.
Lord Bethell
My noble friend is entirely right; it is a point well understood in Government. But he does slightly answer his own question, because our priority at this stage is to ensure that the medical and clinical response is right, and that the message gets across to the public about what they can and should do to protect themselves and delay the spread of this virus. I reassure him and the House that the economic impact of this virus is fully understood, and that there will be a full package of measures announced at a later date, once we have got this initial response out of the way.
Coronavirus
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Bethell
The noble Baroness is entirely right to ask about a specific group. As yet, I do not have a clear answer on the exact demographic that she describes, but I reassure her that our understanding is that this will hit hardest the most vulnerable in our society. The entire focus of our provisions is therefore to make sure that the most vulnerable are looked after best.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, yesterday I asked my noble friend whether he would give guidance to employers on the standards of deep clean required to enable people to return to premises. He indicated that he thought that the CMO did not think that this was necessary and that such advice would be “red herrings or distracting”. I read in the newspapers today that, sadly, a case was identified in the Treasury, which arranged a deep clean overnight so that people could return to work. Speaking as an employer with buildings where continuing services are important to consumers, customers and others, as well as to maintaining employment, we would like to carry out a deep clean every night, so that, if a case was identified, the premises would be safe, but we do not know what standard of deep clean is required. Frankly, asking a cleaning company what it would recommend does not seem the basis on which best to protect not just the staff of the building but also the businesses. May I reiterate the plea for some guidance? If that is not possible, perhaps we could be told what the Treasury decided.
Lord Bethell
I thank my noble friend for his question on deep cleaning. I reassure him that no one is suggesting that the best efforts of any employer to protect the welfare of their staff is in any way irrelevant or undervalued. Cleaning is an important response to this virus and those who decide to put resources into cleaning their premises are entirely to be lauded. There is clear guidance on the PHE website. I have put that guidance in the Library and would be happy to arrange for it to be emailed.
Let me try to explain the nub of the question. The CMO has not put the daily deep cleaning of offices or any work premises at the top of his priorities. The reason for that is that it takes only one person to touch a doorknob at 7 am for that doorknob to be contagious for the rest of the day, whereas a pair of hands can be cleaned many times a day. If you do the arithmetic of how the virus is spread—as the modelling professionals do at SAGE—constant handwashing, which we bang on and on about, is the most effective way of preventing the virus spreading. When that no longer proves an effective measure, the CMO will undoubtedly change the guidance and publish that guidance widely.
Lord Bethell
The noble Lord’s point has been raised with me by staff of the Palace, who are concerned about this. It is not for me, I am afraid, to answer this question; it is for the officers of the House. I know they are looking at this matter and are being advised by the Chief Medical Officer.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I return to the question of deep cleaning. My noble friend says that the advice is clear. Could he confirm that, if an employer arranges for all surfaces within their premises to be treated, that will be sufficient to allow staff to come back into the building safely?