Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I will concentrate my remarks on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, which is a complete abuse of this House. This House is here to revise and offer advice to the elected House of Commons. For any Member of this House to bring forward an amendment that seeks to kill a Bill completely, which has been passed by majorities of around 60 in the other place and which is an absolute priority for the Prime Minister to stop the boats, is an absolute abuse. I do not think that any Member of this House who respects its values and its role could possibly go through the Lobbies and vote for that amendment.

Of course, the point of the Bill is to stop the boats. I have listened carefully to the speeches that have been made and I have yet to hear a remedy from anyone who opposes this Bill as to how we are going to stop the boats. I hear a lot about the rights of children and the right of people fleeing persecution, much of which I support. However, I cannot support the idea of people drowning in the English Channel who are fleeing from a safe country, which is France. To be drowned in the English Channel and watch your children being taken by the sea must be a most horrendous experience, yet all the people who oppose the Bill have nothing to offer by way of a remedy for that problem, which is happening now and which will happen during the course of the following weeks as the summer—

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

If the noble Lord were to look at Hansard for 11 December, he would find a whole-day debate on immigration which puts forward some very clear ideas about stopping the boats.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am most grateful to the most reverend Primate and I echo the words of my noble friend about what a fantastic job he did on Saturday. I am in strong agreement where he is concerned with issues spiritual rather than temporal. I use the word temporal in this sense because there are of course many things that we can do, but these are all going to take time. People are drowning in the English Channel now. People are leaving a safe country in order to come here, and it is fatuous to try to present this in the way that many have done. The much-misquoted saying, often attributed to Edmund Burke but in fact from John Stuart Mill, is:

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing”.


That is what we are hearing today, effectively that we should do nothing about the immediate problem.

To return to the amendment, the role of this House is to give advice and make amendments. I accept there are issues with the Bill that need further scrutiny, particularly the issues of those who are already here in the United Kingdom and who are victims of slavery and placed in a position where they are unlikely to help the police, or those who are concerned, to deal with the real villains. These are the traffickers and the men and women who exploit people who are under enormous stress and strain. It is just not reasonable to criticise the Government for trying to deal with this problem. How on earth can it be justified that 40,000 Albanians are able to come to this country by crossing from France—a safe country—and to argue that this should not be tackled?

Those who criticise this country’s values need to ask themselves why so many people want to come here rather than remain in France, on the other side of the channel. It has been suggested that perhaps hubris has set in, as a result of the success of the liberals—I call them liberals because they are not liberal democrats. Democrats do not seek to use an unelected House to overturn the decisions made by an elected House. We know perfectly well that the United Kingdom has finite capacity. Our public services are under immense strain and yet there is a notion that we should be spending billions of pounds and not actually addressing the problem of stopping the boats. I say to those who oppose the Bill, by all means improve it, but I am delighted that the Official Opposition have indicated that they will not support the amendment, and the most reverend Primate said the same. We need to recognise that something needs to be done, and done now. This is something, which is an alternative to doing nothing, which is the mission of the people opposite.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask in a more timely manner what I was going to ask earlier? The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury asked whether the noble Lord was aware of the practical proposals made in a previous debate. The noble Lord did not answer that question, and I think the House would like to know.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, for whom I have immense respect. Of course I am aware of the measures, but I thought I pointed out that those would take time. It is possible to argue for changes in our approach and that it is necessary to use overseas aid to support people in their own countries. I get all that, but there is an immediate problem now, and this Bill deals with it. It is a duty upon this House to get this Bill on the statute book so that we can deal with the terrible things happening in the English Channel.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, our reasoned amendment sets out why this House should decline to give the Bill a Second Reading. Contrary to the assertions made by the Minister, we believe that the Bill

“undermines the rule of law by failing to meet the United Kingdom’s international law commitments and by allowing Ministers to ignore the directions of judges; … undermines the UK’s tradition of providing sanctuary to refugees by removing the ability of refugees to exercise their legal right to claim asylum, by removing protections afforded to modern slavery victims and by increasing the number of people in indefinite detention, including children; … fails to provide safe and legal routes for refugees; … fails to include measures to eliminate the backlog of asylum cases; and … fails to include measures to tackle people smuggling gangs”.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester for pointing out that when, in 2007, the former Labour Government passed the Fraud (Trials Without a Jury) Bill in the other place by a similar majority to this Bill, the House of Lords carried a fatal Motion at Second Reading. The Bill was never reintroduced. The list of those noble Lords who voted against its Second Reading is illuminating, and included two Bishops. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who earlier today described overturning the will of the other place as a

“complete abuse of this House”

and said,

“I do not think that any Member of this House who respects its values and its role could possibly go through the Lobbies and vote for that amendment”,


must have had a road to Damascus experience.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am sure the noble Lord would not want to mislead the House; he has obviously looked into that matter. That Motion was that consideration of Second Reading should be deferred by six months, not that the Bill should be destroyed.

[Lord Paddick]

The noble Lord will know exactly what Erskine May says about the Motion that was passed, which is that Parliament considers that to be a fatal Motion against the Bill. A hundred and 23 other Conservatives also voted to refuse the Bill its Second Reading, including 59 who are still sitting Members of this House. Perhaps they have also changed their minds and perhaps, when they find themselves in opposition, they will change their minds again.

If I thought that this Bill would stop the boats, I would not seek to divide this House, but it is not likely to do so. This Bill is all pain and no gain. This is a question of principle. I wish to test the opinion of the House.