Hong Kong

Lord Flight Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks about the situation on the ground with great insight. I agree with him, which is why we have consistently raised the importance of the Hong Kong authorities—particularly the Chief Executive, Carrie Lam—having a constructive dialogue with the people. According to Carrie Lam herself, it is a fact that the original proposal on which these protests were based is dead. I note that it has not yet been formally withdrawn; we are watching that very carefully. On the more general issue, it is important that Hong Kong resolves its issues within the parameters of both the agreement that has been signed and the autonomy it enjoys. On the broader issue of human rights, particularly those raised directly with the United Kingdom, wherever we see human rights usurped and the rights of citizens denied, we will raise our voice as a strong voice for human rights around the world. We have raised our deep concerns with both the Hong Kong and Chinese authorities on this issue.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the deal the Thatcher Government did with China was wise but did not cater for full-scale democracy in Hong Kong? While there is hope that the situation may move towards that, I suggest that the right posture for the time being is the deal done with China by the Thatcher Government.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that we continue to impress on both the Hong Kong and Chinese authorities, in the bilateral engagement that we have had, the importance of the principles of the agreement that guaranteed autonomy for Hong Kong. It is something that should be held; it has held thus far. Despite historic pressures, “one country, two systems” has largely held together. It is important that it continues to do so, for the agreement runs until 2047. We hope the rights enshrined in that agreement will also be upheld thereafter.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Flight Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

I look forward to listening to noble colleagues as to whether my views are those of just one, maybe maverick, Lord, but one who knows the overseas territories in depth. Then I shall listen to the response of my noble friend on the Front Bench. I beg to move.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I want to speak out against Amendment 22 and in favour of Amendment 22A. I also declare my own interests as in the register: I am a regulator in the island of Guernsey.

As the Minister argued well, Amendment 22 raises major constitutional issues which the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, has described in even greater detail, but it is also the wrong approach to addressing the very problem of money laundering. It is shameful that the UK has a far worse record than the overseas territories. The reforms in the UK do not work because they do not include any non-British company and have no verification, whereas the arrangements that both the Crown dependencies and overseas territories have put in place provide all the necessary information to the appropriate authorities on asking. It is also a much more tightly and accurately kept register.

The legislation invites the overseas territories to discuss the constitutional position with government; it may be suitable to go for judicial review. I am sure that some will feel that the UK Government are trying to push them in the direction of a UDI. The UK Government’s position was set out extremely well back in 2015, at the beginning of debates on this territory, by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, when she was Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Business. She said:

“The noble Lords, Lord Watson, Lord Mitchell and others, asked why we are not including the overseas territories and Crown dependencies in this legislation. The Prime Minister made clear that he would like a publicly accessible central registry of company beneficial ownership information to be the new international standard. We would therefore like the overseas territories and Crown dependencies to match our policy. We respect, however, the fact that the overseas territories and Crown dependencies are separate jurisdictions with their own elected Governments, under which they are responsible for fiscal matters”.—[Official Report, 19/1/15; col. GC 321.]


That was the British Government setting out our position quite straightforwardly, but they are now standing on their head and, as commented, putting the overseas territories out to dry.

The UK treats overseas territories and Crown dependencies alike, so it is rather strange that there is one arrangement for one category and one for another. Amendment 22 empowers the United Kingdom Government to impose publicly accessible registers on overseas territories but not on Crown dependencies. If any overseas territory has not met the timetable by the end of December 2020 as advised, the Secretary of State is apparently mandated to draft Orders in Council requiring them so to do. I hope that, as time passes, if this legislation goes ahead, ways will be found to implement it in a more balanced manner and, potentially, for it to be amended at some future stage.

In the other place, Sir Alan Duncan repeated the point about overseas territories being,

“separate jurisdictions, with their own democratically elected Governments”.

He went on:

“They are responsible for their own fiscal matters, and they are not represented in this Parliament”,—[Official Report, Commons, 1/5/18; col. 181.]


which does not legislate for them. A deal was done 30 or 40 years ago in which, in essence, the British Government said, “We’re not going to support you financially. You’ve got to develop your own economy but we won’t interfere with your doing that”. However, they now represent a serious threat, as my noble friend Lord Naseby pointed out, to these jurisdictions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the use by Russia of dirty money was highlighted in the report today of the Foreign Affairs Committee in respect of counterterrorism and so on. It is clear that although the two Members who have just spoken did so with great passion and knowledge, they failed to take on board the actual figures. Global Witness says that at the moment there is £34 billion of Russian money in the overseas territories, £30 billion of which is in the BVI. Why does the Russian money go there? Is it suggested that all that money is clean? Noble Lords will recall that when the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and I among others were pointing out areas of property investment in London, we said there are several streets in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which we both know well, where the lights never go on at night because money—

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, does the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, have the figure for black Russian assets in the UK? I imagine that there is substantially more than £30 billion.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, with the public register of beneficial ownership it should be possible to obtain those figures. It would be absurd if money that fled from the London property market went to the overseas territories and sought a haven there. Anyway, the figures that are given—I am very happy be told that the they are incorrect—are that £34 billion of Russian money is currently in the overseas territories, £30 billion of which is in the BVI, and there has been over £100 billion over the past decade. Surely a proportion of that at the very least is dirty money, and the question must therefore be posed: are we prepared to countenance dirty money finding a haven in the overseas territories? That is what is suggested.

We have to respond very sensitively. Of course there will be an economic impact, and that will only be exacerbated by the impact of the hurricane, particularly in the BVI. Because of the UK’s responsibility to these overseas territories, we will have to bear at least part of the cost, but surely we should not countenance the position that I have mentioned. If the Minister has figures other than this £34 billion, I am very happy to hear them, and if he suggests that none of that is dirty money then I will be happy to hear his view, but surely it is in everyone’s interest that dirty money be pursued wherever it is and that there be a publicly accessible register.

At the same time, the economic impact should be recognised, along with the possible damage to the constitutional position. If those countries wish to go independent, so be it. Fairly recently there was a report on the contingent liabilities to the British taxpayer of the overseas territories. I wonder where the balance would lie, if a number of these countries went independent, regarding the amount currently spent by the British taxpayer. I am happy with that, but the question must remain: if these figures are correct, and if it must be that a portion of that sum is dirty, are we prepared to allow that to continue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury (CB)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. The clause which he seeks to remove from the Bill is a classic example of a proposal which may seem right to many people—for the reasons given so clearly by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea—but, after proper consideration can be seen to be very wrong.

Unlike most countries, our constitutional arrangements are based on conventions and mutual respect rather than pieces of paper, and we break those conventions and trample on that mutual respect at our peril. As the 2012 White Paper on the territories recognised, the UK’s legislative power over the territories is in practice and by convention limited to,

“external affairs, defence, internal security (including the police) and the appointment, discipline and removal of public officers”—

and, I would add, compliance with the UK’s international obligations. Accordingly, the proposal would run contrary to the established distribution of powers—quite apart from the points made about the constitution of some of the territories.

Not only that, it would do so in a most inappropriate way. There has been no consultation with the democratically elected Governments of any of the territories about the legislation. There has been no investigation of the effectiveness of this law in relation to any of the territories. There has been no inquiry as to the economic and social consequences of the legislation on any of the territories. That is in circumstances where, to go back to what the White Paper said, the UK Government aim,

“to work with Territories to strengthen good governance arrangements, public financial management and economic planning”,

to work with the territories.

I regret to say that the proposed law appears to be old-style colonialism at its worst: damaging legislation which has no cost for the legislating country but which will cause hardship to the victim countries, and does so not merely without representation but without consultation or full investigation. But it gets worse. The law is imposed in circumstances in which it is indisputable that the BVI, Cayman and Bermuda comply with all current international transparency and taxation requirements, such as those laid down by the OECD. This was recognised by the very full and generally rather critical December 2017 EU Muscovici report, which identifies which countries are unco-operative by hiding assets, and so on, and it does not include any of the territories.

[Lord Flight]

Is it not the case that they also comply with all the FATF requirements, which the UK does not?

[Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury]

I believe that is the case, yes. I was going on to say that in many respects it appears that all three territories which I mentioned have a regulatory regime which in many respects is stricter than that of this country.

On top of all this, this proposal imposes a financially damaging regime on at least three territories in the Caribbean area with significant financial service industries for which the UK has responsibility, while not doing so for the Crown dependencies with substantial financial service industries closer to home: Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, for example. That adds discriminatory insult to unconstitutional and unfair injury. Let me make it clear to the Crown dependencies that I say this to oppose the proposed law applying to the territories, not to support it applying to the dependencies.

Finally, what will happen if this unfair and unjustified law is brought into force, apart from leading to a real sense of grievance and of being let down on the part of small states which it is our duty to protect? It will do no good. If there is the hot money to which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, referred, it will quickly move away from the BVI, Cayman and Bermuda to places which do not have respected democratic Governments and independent and respected courts, where the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which I had the honour to chair for five years, has no power. In effect, it will not be upholding the rule of law, it will be undermining it.

It will be only when we have universal acceptance of such regulation that, I respectfully suggest, it will be appropriate to impose it on these territories.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Flight Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I very much agreed with the constitutional points made, particularly by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. More widely, I suggest that this amendment would be counterproductive in its effect. It is interesting to note that law enforcement agencies do not support public registers, particularly in such territories, as they do not improve law enforcement capabilities.

As David Lewis, head of the world’s anti-money laundering standard-setter, the Financial Action Task Force, and formerly of the UK National Crime Agency, said:

“Incomplete, unverified, out of date information in a public register is not as useful as law enforcement agencies being able to access the right information at the point they need it”.


Moreover, the UK’s overseas dependencies have already shown themselves extremely efficient in responding to the requests of policing and other agencies. Interestingly, tax authorities do not support public registers either, as people report less candidly than when information is available only to public authorities. The OECD’s Keeping It Safe states that to,

“comply with their obligations under the law, taxpayers need to have confidence that the often sensitive financial information is not disclosed inappropriately”.

Australia’s chief tax collector opposes public registers. Interestingly, UK intelligence and law enforcement, a key foreign policy asset, is likely to be undermined. UK law enforcement has access to information in the overseas territories’ central platforms. This can be exchanged with other countries to secure reciprocity or other benefits to the UK. Public registers remove this leverage and facilitate identity theft. The Financial Times has reported that directors are twice as likely to be victims of identity theft due to the Companies House public register of directors.

It is pretty clear that international standards do not require public registers but do require verification. That is the key point: you can have effective verification when registers are not public. However, as the, I am afraid, rather disappointing results of what has happened in the UK show, you cannot have verification with an open system. For once, even the EU was correct: it withdrew its proposal for public registers in December 2016 on the grounds that they disproportionately infringe human rights. The EU’s Legal Service stated that introducing public registers was a disproportionate infringement of the right to privacy and the European Data Protection Supervisor stated that it would breach data protection principles.

I think everyone is in favour of the objective; the question is how you achieve it most effectively. I have been a commissioner on the Guernsey Financial Services Commission for a number of years and have had some involvement in what Guernsey has done. Interestingly, Guernsey scores higher than the UK for general regulatory effectiveness and compliance. However, the crucial thing is that the registers are accurate, have been verified and can be used swiftly by the proper authorities that need that information. I am afraid that making them public undoes a lot of the point of them.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of speaking in Committee, when I declared my interests as a vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for the Cayman Islands, and the fact that I have family working in the Cayman Islands.

I reflected on what the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said in Committee, particularly the examples she gave of developing countries being fleeced by the operations of the overseas territories—my words, not hers. I did a bit of research and asked the Cayman Islands for information on the type of operations conducted there. I give a case history that I think your Lordships will find interesting. Money does not stay in the Cayman Islands but flows through them to support growth in onshore jurisdictions, including in developing countries. An example of this is the World Bank’s International Finance Corporation, which invested more than $400 million through Cayman-based investment vehicles in 2015 alone. The money supported critical development projects in more than 24 developing countries. That is not just a one-off example; there are many others in what I call the leading overseas territories. I will not repeat what the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said; I am grateful to him for the research that he has done.

I point out that the Cayman Islands had a new constitution in 2009, which was approved at Lancaster House and contained measures on the rule of law and human rights that meet the most stringent international and European standards. Included in their Bill of Rights is the right to privacy and strong laws on data protection.

It has already been made clear that most countries are not adopting public registers. Certainly, for the overseas territories in the Caribbean, the rival centres are the United States, Hong Kong and Singapore. They have all looked at public registers but not one has agreed to it. So if we force the overseas territories to have public registers, the effect will be that business will move away—there will be none of the sort of business that I have just cited, which is increasingly the nature of the business done in the overseas territories. Furthermore, the information Her Majesty’s Government get on money laundering or anything else they require would certainly be weakened greatly because the activities that people are interested in would not be available. My noble friend Lord Flight mentioned the situation in the EU, which takes the view that it would disproportionately infringe on human rights. I do not need to expand on that.

I will finish on a key constitutional point—perhaps, as someone who took the Maastricht treaty through, I had to learn something about constitutional law. I re-emphasise that the overseas territories are self-governing territories, and legislating for them is constitutionally questionable. It is true that Orders in Council have been used to impose legislation on the overseas territories, but only for constitutional or human rights issues. The need to consider the overseas territories’ interests was confirmed by the House of Lords in 2008. To use an Order in Council for financial regulation when the overseas territories have already adopted international standards while the UK has not would expose the UK to legal challenge as potentially irrational and therefore could be overturned on judicial review. It would also be provocative, as my noble friend has indicated, to Scotland and the other devolved Administrations in the United Kingdom. I for one will certainly, with a clear conscience, vote totally against this amendment.