European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

If the House of Commons voted by an overwhelming majority to move Article 50, surely that was done on the understanding that the negotiations would be completed in two years. If the date was to be changed, surely that would need a vote in the other place.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Perhaps I may ask a question for elucidation—I may have missed something. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and others have spoken as though Parliament is not to be consulted by the Minister making the order. However, paragraph 10 of Schedule 7 states:

“A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 14(4) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament”.


It may not be sufficient scrutiny, but there is scrutiny—Parliament is not being completely bypassed.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

I would like to offer an addendum to what the noble Lord has said. In a way, it is a response to my noble friend Lord True. All those who feel as passionately as he and I clearly do about the Good Friday agreement—I think that it would be slightly unsavoury to try to compare who did what about that agreement, and I am glad to see that my noble friend agrees with that—can later support the amendment to the Bill which will write the Good Friday agreement on to the face of the Bill. I look forward to having the support of my noble friends Lord True and Lord Hamilton and others when that amendment comes before the House. Perhaps even some of the duty Privy Council Brexiteers on their Bench down there will be able to support it too.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

When you say it is the legal position, what is the evidence for that? Can we have a look at that legal position? What you are saying as the Minister is that a decision was taken on advice that you are not prepared to show us, with no consultation with our partners, for no good reason.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will remember that we address the House and not individuals. It avoids getting very angry with each other individually and it is much better to address your Lordships collectively.

[Lord Warner]

Before the Minister resumes, can I pursue this issue? The industry is very clear in its legal views, which it is prepared to put in the public arena, that we do not have to leave Euratom if we leave the EU. Have the Government discussed that issue with the industry and what the reasons are for its difference of legal view from the Government’s legal view?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elton Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, we now reach a point that has been of considerable interest throughout the Bill’s passage in Parliament: how retained EU law, once it forms part of our domestic law, will be amended and how those amendments can be scrutinised to ensure that rights remain protected. There is no doubt that retained EU law, including EU-derived domestic legislation, retained direct EU legislation and anything saved by virtue of Clause 4 will contain within it important rights and protections that are currently relied upon daily by individuals and businesses. As such, for the Bill to achieve its aim of continuity within UK law following exit day, it is crucial that these rights and protections are not diluted or weakened as we withdraw from the EU.

I believe that that is what the noble Lady, Baroness Hayter, aims to achieve with her Amendment 11, which seeks to put in place an enhanced scrutiny procedure for regulations made under powers that amend retained EU law in certain defined policy areas—both powers in the Bill and those that exist or will exist elsewhere. As we have heard, the policy areas covered are employment, equality, consumer standards, health and safety standards and environmental standards.

As I have said, I understand and support the noble Baroness’s intention to protect this law, and I and my ministerial colleagues have all repeated the Government’s commitment to effective parliamentary scrutiny and to maintaining the UK’s long-standing tradition of upholding the rights and protections in these vital areas. However, I believe the Government have already taken steps to address those concerns, potentially in ways that are even stronger than the noble Baroness’s amendment. Through the package of amendments that we tabled for Report, which will be discussed in more detail on a later day, the Government have actively and constructively responded to the concerns that have been raised in this House and have proposed putting in place suitable protections against the erosion of rights within retained EU law.

For example, by the powers contained in Clauses 7, 8 and 9, modifications to all retained EU law, not just in the specific policy areas listed in Amendment 11, will be subject to numerous scrutiny procedures, including where relevant the new sifting committees within both Houses. Ministers will also have to comply with a number of important statement requirements for each piece of secondary legislation, which will be published in the Explanatory Memorandum when the SI is laid, to explain fully why the instrument has been made for the consideration of Parliament and the public.

The Government, recognising and responding to the concerns on how retained direct EU legislation will be amended beyond the life of the Bill powers, have also tabled further amendments that address the use of existing and future delegated powers to modify this law. These amendments alter the circumstances and procedures concerning how it is or is not possible to amend retained direct EU legislation by other domestic powers, reflecting the hierarchy of EU law. EU regulations and rights that are saved by Clause 4, which are higher up this hierarchy and are likely to contain more fundamental rights, rules and provisions, will therefore be amendable in a way akin to primary legislation. EU tertiary legislation and decisions, on the other hand, which contain more technical and detailed provisions, will be amendable in a way akin to subordinate legislation.

I believe that in many ways those amendments can be seen to go a step beyond the noble Baroness’s amendment, in that they seek to protect all the rights and protections contained in EU regulations and those that are retained by virtue of Clause 4, not just rights within a particular policy area. I also believe the Government’s amendments represent a more effective approach. Referring to broad but undefined policy areas could produce unclear or differing views about which provisions of retained EU law would actually be covered. This would not only lead to uncertainty within our domestic statute book but risk creating significant litigation as individuals and businesses sought clarity about how retained EU law should be treated.

I look forward to discussing in detail the Government’s amendments on this subject during later days. I believe they strike the right balance between protecting retained EU law from erosion and allowing us sufficient flexibility to ensure that we can deliver an operative and stable domestic statute book. Having said that, beyond the Government’s amendment I cannot give false hope that I will reflect further on this issue between now and Third Reading, so if the noble Baroness wishes to test the opinion of the House, as I suspect she does, she should do so now.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

If this amendment is accepted, will it prevent the passage of the Minister’s amendment that covers the same ground?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I do not think they are mutually exclusive. I think the amendments can both stand.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elton Excerpts

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, perhaps I may comment a bit further, because I think there is a serious problem in the conduct of Divisions in the House when large numbers of Peers are voting. We have had only 14 or 15 Divisions on the EU withdrawal Bill, but this is the fourth amendment where the result of a Division has been misreported in the House. On three previous occasions, there was a difference in the tallies between the tellers and the clerks, which I think is a serious business. The majorities have been quite large, but if they had been small, we would not know what was the view of the House by the way that the Divisions have been conducted.

We have now had a serious misreporting of a vote. It takes an inordinate time for Divisions to be conducted because the procedures of the House were not conceived for the number of Members that we have but—more importantly, I think—because the new electronic system of recording votes is very inefficient. I simply note this for the attention of the Clerk of the Parliaments, with whom I have now raised this twice. I should note that he has not replied to my last letter to him on the subject. I think this issue needs to be looked at by whichever is the appropriate body in the House responsible for the conduct of business.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, I may be under a misapprehension, but I thought that the Question before the House was whether or not to agree Amendment 83A.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

I follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and intervene briefly to thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for Amendment 83A and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for Amendment 83E, and both of them together for what they have said. I agree entirely with their remarks and thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his characteristically forensic analytical ability to go through all the points, with which I strongly agree, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for his remarks. This is an important matter, and, as the only speaker who is not a signatory to the amendments, I think it would be right if the Government gave a comprehensive answer. People are worried about the future of equalities legislation in this country. On the reference of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, to the possibilities, there may be a case for primary legislation in future—a new, comprehensive Act—but that subject is separate from this amendment and debate.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Elton Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Obviously if there is no deal, we do not have an implementation period—but we are working towards getting a deal. Each of the stages so far has been announced and agreed. We agreed the issues over the financial settlement and citizens’ rights before Christmas. We agreed the implementation period in March. I realise that that the noble Baroness and many of her colleagues do not want the process of Brexit to proceed, but we are acting as a responsible Government and endeavouring to agree these things in a timely and proportionate manner. We have agreed the details of an implementation period. Each time they declare their scepticism, but we are confident that we will reach a deal at the end of the day.

As I have set out, this is neither helpful nor necessary as the text of the amendment mirrors all of the issues that we are consulting on before introducing legislation that this House and other places will be able to scrutinise. I hope that noble Lords will acknowledge that voting for this amendment would prejudge a significant period of consultation that would go against the principles of good policy-making and be ultimately detrimental to the future protection of environmental law. I hope, therefore—without much optimism—that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

I hate to interrupt the Minister again, but I am genuinely confused by his answers to the Cross Benches. Do I understand that there will be an untrammelled means of enforcement until the end of the implementation period, and during that time there will be negotiation about future legislation; or is it suspended while the negotiation goes on?

[Lord Callanan]

As the implementation period has already been agreed, it will be the subject of further legislation in this House. Irrespective of that, we are giving a commitment to bring forward the environmental legislation already announced by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, on which I have already updated this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

I very much hope that happens, and I hope that the noble Lord, being a democrat, will support the holding of a referendum on the Prime Minister’s final treaty. However, that motivation does not guide us in our consideration of these amendments. Our role is to perform our duty as a revising assembly.

Finally, I want to say a word about the right wing of the Conservative Party, which is calling for our abolition because we are not acting as the unquestioning registry office of the views of Mr Paul Dacre, Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg, Mr Nigel Farage and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I am strongly in favour of House of Lords reform. I have consistently voted in favour of an elected second Chamber; if the present crisis leads to that, it would be a great gain for the country. An elected Chamber would be much more powerful than the present House and therefore much more able to stand up to Governments such as this one, with weak and non-existent mandates but big and damaging policies.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords—

[Lord Adonis]

I think that the noble Lord will have an opportunity to make his own speech in a moment, if he wishes to do so. I am drawing to a close.

--- Later in debate ---

To those who see it as a quite simple matter to cut ourselves off from all the European institutions which we—yes, we, many here in this Chamber tonight—have helped build, to forget all that and exit into a setting sun over a distant horizon and whatever cliff edge lies beyond, let me say this: you exit if you want. But a majority of us in this Chamber, I suspect, will do everything within our power to keep the European dream alive, albeit in a new, more limited context; a dream of a continent working in peace and harmony, and a dream worthy of being transmitted to our grandchildren. To quote an absent friend, it is a dream that will never fade.

[Lord Elton]

I congratulate the noble Lord on his “hwyl”—

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes (Con)]

My Lords, my eyes have misted over with gratitude that I have lived long enough to see this happening. My congratulations go to the Government and everybody who has participated in making this possible and making it acceptable to all sides. Thinking of the day when I voted not to stay in the first place, I can only say that, now at last, the air is fresher. We can breathe again and do all the things that we, and we alone, believe are in the interests of this country and of many friends across all countries in Europe.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, in moving the Motion that we are now discussing, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made one assertion which cannot go without comment. I had intended to ask him—I now ask your Lordships—to recognise that, whereas an elected House would be stronger against a weak Government, an elected and paid House would be weaker against a strong Government. I do not think that the noble Lord was here, because I think that it was in 1953, when the terrorism Bill was passed by this House. The ping-pong stage lasted from 2.30 pm on a Thursday till 7.31 pm on a Friday without interruption. I doubt whether the Whips of any Government with any majority in the House of Commons and a paid House here would fail to drive through such legislation. There would be no such resistance.

I raise that now merely because it will be a big issue later on. Let us not swallow the fiction that an elected and paid House is a stronger protection against an overmighty Government.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for this opportunity to say what I want to say now: those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad. Through the progress of this Bill in Committee and on Report, noble Lords collectively have taken leave of their senses and, in doing so, have put the whole future of your Lordships’ House as an appointed Chamber at stake.

When the coalition Government decided that they wanted to reform your Lordships’ House, I became a humble foot soldier supporting my noble friend Lord Cormack in his campaign to preserve an appointed House. We emphasised at that point that our job was to revise and improve legislation, but never to challenge the supremacy of the elected Chamber. I am not sure that we have kept to that. We seem to have had a very large number of amendments—much reference has been made to the 15 amendments made by your Lordships’ House. Many of them strike me as having been quite outside the scope of the Bill.

I went to see the Clerk of the Parliaments when I was withdrawing my amendment, which talked about preparing for no deal if we wanted a good deal, because I thought it completely irrelevant to the Bill. The Clerk of the Parliaments assured me that everything was completely in order and the amendments were quite acceptable; indeed, he said that they would have been totally acceptable in the other place as well. I then talked to a right honourable friend of mine in the other place who has watched the progress of the Bill in the House of Commons. He said that Conservative rebels had tried to table an amendment basically mandating us to remain in a customs union. This was judged in the House of Commons to be outside the scope of the Long Title and ruled out of order. Now my noble friend Lord Framlingham, who has experience of being a Deputy Speaker in the other place, tells me that many of the amendments that we have passed here would never be allowed in the other place.

This raises a serious question: are we as an appointed House going to have greater powers to put down amendments than the democratically elected House down the way? How comfortable are we in that position, when we have no democratic legitimacy whatever?

My right honourable friend Dominic Grieve at least has constituents whom he must go to and he may even stand at the next general election, but I do not have to remind the House that we have no constituents and probably will not stand at any general election ever again. The rebels in your Lordships’ House are therefore in a completely different position from those in the other place.

I have to say that support for our appointed House is drifting away. We are losing friends and gaining no new ones. One might reckon that my honourable friend Jacob Rees-Mogg would support an appointed House. Even he gave the warning the other day that we were playing with fire, so I do not think that we can rely on his support either.

When we beat off attempts during the coalition Government to reform your Lordships’ House, the person who really came to our aid was one Jesse Norman. We owe him a great debt of gratitude that we exist in an appointed House today. Jesse Norman was very courageous and sacrificed several years of his ministerial career as a result of taking such a courageous stand. He is now a Minister and I am glad that he is there, so we cannot count on him to rally right-wing Tory MPs and to save us next time round.

I am afraid that we have done enormous damage to our reputation in the country generally. Everybody says, “Oh, there’s nothing to worry about”. I have been in this House for 12 years now. I have never known a petition going down asking for the abolition of your Lordships’ House, but my noble friend Lord Robathan yesterday told me that the number of names on it was 163,000 and rising. We are being rather complacent if we think that we can carry on in this extraordinarily arrogant way telling people of this country who voted to leave the EU that they got it all wrong and that somehow we must come out with a solution that keeps us half in the EU and deny the people the vote they have made.