Gaming Machine (Circumstances of Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Golding (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. He said what many of us have considered saying in the past, but he has done it far more effectively. The number of people who enjoy playing these machines is considerable, and they do so sensibly.

I have friends who travel around the world and playing these machines is their pleasure. They start in the evening with a certain amount of money and they play and play until they have lost it. Sometimes it takes them all night and they are there until five o’clock in the morning but that is their pleasure and why should we stop them doing it? Some of my friends won 2,000 Australian dollars playing in Australia. They decided to leave the money there and go out to try to get rid of it by playing in the same way as they did before. It is their enjoyment and their holiday. The prospect of the poorest people in our communities putting £100 into a machine every 20 seconds is ludicrous. It is beyond belief that they would sit there doing that, losing money. That is absolutely nonsense.

If you are a problem gambler, you are a problem gambler. You will gamble wherever you can—not necessarily on machines, but up in the bedroom, playing online. We cannot stop people who want to gamble from gambling. If they enjoy it, why should we be stopping them?

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I was not going to say anything but I have been provoked into it by my noble friends behind me. I never thought that I would find myself in such disagreement with them and I regret that they have taken that position.

Of course there are problem gamblers, and of course it is hard for them. We have heard of people who have spent all their money and got into debt simply by gambling away all that they have. Surely there is a responsibility on the Government to at least encourage people who are inclined that way to bet moderately, and not give them the facilities to bet large amounts ever so quickly.

I am not against gambling as such. I remind my noble friend Lord Donoughue of the day that he and I went to a race meeting at Listowel Races in Ireland. We had a great time.

[Lord Donoughue]

Great craic.

[Lord Dubs]

We had great craic. I was in the fortunate position that I was quite friendly with the then Irish Culture Minister quite some years ago—he is now dead, unfortunately. He was a very good judge of horses. For the first four or five races I put my money on the same horses he did and I was well ahead of the game. I lost him for the last race or two and I contributed significantly to the Irish economy. The races were 25 minutes or half an hour apart; therefore, it was possible to be quite measured about it.

The problem is the speed with which one can lose large sums of money on these terminals. Why are so many local authorities appalled by this? Why is there a wish to keep the maximum stakes down to £2? Surely not all these people are absolutely against any form of gambling, but the local authorities realise that it can get out of hand.

Initially there were two Lib Dem Ministers on the Front Bench; I am afraid that the arrival of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has rather spoilt my story. How was it that they pulled such a short straw to be sitting there, shortly before an election, advocating a case that is against their party’s policy? I cannot understand that. How were they persuaded to do this? The mind boggles. They are smiling now, of course, but they both at one point looked very unhappy about the position that they were in. Their faces revealed what they thought about the whole business. They did not agree with my noble friends, of course.

It is a sad moment that we are putting forward regulations that cannot do much good at best and will do harm at worst. I do not think that the change advocated by my noble friend on the Front Bench would mean the massive closure of betting shops; it would just get betting into a sensible proportion. That is all we are asking. We are not saying that there should not be gambling and betting. It can be fun, but it should not get totally out of hand; I believe that this proposal does that.

[Lord Donoughue]

Does my noble friend not also remember that at that Irish race meeting, when the Irish Minister for Racing—the late, great Joe Walsh—put his bets on, the bookmakers did not even give him a ticket, unlike my noble friend or me? When I asked the bookmaker later why he did not give Joe Walsh a ticket, he said, “You do not give an Irish Minister for Racing a betting ticket”. Does he not think it would be a great advance in this country if British politicians and Ministers were treated with the same respect at our racecourses?

[Lord Dubs]

I do not particularly disagree with my noble friend. I am tempted to go into all sorts of other anecdotes about our experiences together, but I had better not. I will just say this: when we were drinking some nice single malt whisky in a hotel in Brussels on one occasion, he accused me of being a Roundhead and said that he was a Cavalier. Does he remember that?

[Lord Donoughue]

Still true.

[Lord Dubs]

I am sorry that these regulations are being put forward. There is no need to do so in the dying embers of a Government. It will do harm; it will not do good. I very much regret what the Government are doing.