Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

This matter was the subject of comment and discussion in the House of Commons. For all concerned, the way in which these two pieces of legislation fit together needs to be considered, because it could affect the very good and hard work that has been done by the Minister on the Mental Health Act. Therefore, I hope His Majesty’s Government will come forward with amendments or offer a meeting to noble Lords and the relevant clinicians of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, Professor Alex Ruck Keene, so we can understand how these pieces of legislation will work together and avoid further amendments being laid—which is why I have taken the first opportunity to raise this matter with your Lordships.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

It seems to me that this an opportunity for the noble and learned Lord to help the Committee and speed the Bill. Here are a whole series of amendments designed to deal with the genuine concerns of the experts who are going to have to actually carry this law into effect if we are to pass it. Some of us may have strong views about the principle, but we have a duty to do our best to make the Bill work.

One of the problems people have is that the noble and learned Lord has so far not been willing to tell the Committee that he will meet concerns by proposing amendments himself. In this particular group of amendments—which is why I tried to wait until the end of it, because it is not only on an individual amendment that I speak—there are a whole series of reflections of the concerns of those who will have to deal with the Bill when it is passed.

This is an occasion in which we can overcome a lot of the concerns—I might even say suspicions—that there is no intention of changing anything, and that it will just be pushed through, however long it takes, in order that there should not be a concern at the other end of the Corridor. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord does not really think that, but he needs to reassure the Committee. We will get much further, much faster if he can look at these amendments and say he is going to bring forward amendments that reflect the concerns here, which themselves reflect the concerns of the various medical bodies in particular, in order that the Bill will be a more effective Act.

If the noble and learned Lord does not do that, there is a very serious criticism of the Bill, that we are not reflecting in this House the concerns of those who, next to the people who make this choice, matter most: the people who have to implement it. All the medical bodies have reservations. Some few are opposed to it in principle. I am perhaps more interested in those who are not opposed to it in principle but who are concerned about it in practice. If we are not prepared to make the changes that make them happy—though perhaps “happy” is the wrong word—and able in good conscience to support the Bill and follow it through, then we will not have done our job as this reforming House. I say this because I have become rather weary with the fact that what appears to be true is that there are those for whom this is so important a doctrinal position that they are not prepared to consider that this particular formulation needs alteration.

Therefore, I ask the noble and learned Lord, when he comes to answer, to consider very seriously a willingness to say, “I will go through these amendments, talk to the people outside if necessary and bring forward the kinds of amendments that will meet the real concerns of those people upon whom I am going to depend for the efficacy of this legislation if it is passed”. If the noble and learned Lord is unable to do that, more and more of us will begin to wonder whether this is really a debate in which we are trying to improve the Bill and make it the best legislation possible, or merely one that will be prolonged for as long as possible in order to put through the exact same Bill to the House of Commons. Frankly, if it is that, all of us who have doubts about it should redouble our doubts. If it is not that, we have a duty to help the noble and learned Lord to get the best Bill possible. It is in his hands, and this may well be the moment for him to show his hand.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

I wonder whether the noble Lord would accept the actual evidence of one member of the medical profession who gave evidence to the Select Committee. She reflected many of the concerns that people who support the Bill agree with. She said that, when the healthcare professions

“get it wrong … it is usually because we are being paternalistic”.

A great many of the amendments in this group are very well intentioned and meaning in their concern for patients, but we must allow for the fact that they rely on an assumption that the medical professions, in their doubts, may act paternalistically.

I have been married for a very long time to a doctor. He would certainly say that the practice of medicine has changed hugely in his lifetime, and that when he first qualified as a young doctor, the field was paternalistic. However, now there is a much greater assumption that the words, intentions and wishes of the patient should be the ones that carry force. That is obviously the philosophy behind so many of these amendments, which, in a sense, seek to reintroduce the paternalistic attitude of the medical profession. In contrast, those of us who support the Bill are much more concerned to support its underlying principle of the autonomy of the individual patient.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I hope that it was an intervention, because, if so, I am able to comment on it. If we start talking about paternalism, we will go backwards in time. We are not really talking about that at all; we are talking about the legislation of this House and the House of Commons. We are talking about how we produce legislation that works. What worries me is that there are a lot of words being used, such as “paternalism”, “kindness” and others, that are making us less precise. Law has to be precise enough for it to be properly implemented.

Frankly, the intervention of the noble Baroness sums up something else. There is a paternalism among some in this Committee who feel that they are so right about the Bill and that they can therefore ignore the comments of people who are trying very hard to overcome their own prejudices—if that is the right word—to get the Bill right. I find it a bit discomfiting to be lectured to, from time to time, as if I should not be making any of these comments because I do not seem to understand the higher views that are being presented. After being a Member of Parliament for 40 years and knowing what goes on in families in terrible circumstances, all I am trying to do is protect people. That is my job; it has been my job all my life. In response to the noble Baroness shaking her head, I say: that is not paternalism; that is the role of leadership in any circumstances. It is what decent people do, and, above all, it is what kindness demands.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to two blocks of amendments in this group. Before I turn to that, I just want to pick up on the points that my noble friend Lord Deben made. I strongly agree with the thrust of his speech, and I look forward to the response of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, to this group, not just to the specific amendments. Perhaps it will give us a sign of how he intends to respond.

I agree that if the noble and learned Lord listens to the concerns of the Committee and sets out clearly on the Floor of the House on the public record what he intends to do about some of them, that is the best way, from his point of view, to make progress. It is important that those commitments are made on the Floor of the House in public, rather than in private meetings. That is how Ministers generally conduct themselves when they discuss concerns with Back-Benchers. They might have meetings to discuss those concern, but, certainly when I was a Minister, I was always expected to set out at the Dispatch Box what I was committing to do on behalf of the Government so that people were confident that we all had an agreement and that it could not be walked back. Given that we are in a slightly different situation here, because it is a Private Member’s Bill and the noble and learned Lord is the sponsor, I would expect him to behave in the same way as a Minister piloting a Bill to give that level of public transparency, and I hope he will be able to do so.

I will pick up on what my noble friend Lord Deben said in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington. I agree with her that we should not be paternalistic, but I do not agree that that is what we are in danger of doing. This group of amendments is about making sure that other people are not making decisions on behalf of the individual who is going to end up losing their life. This is about making sure it is actually their decision, that they are not being pressured into it and that someone is not making it on their behalf. Allowing somebody else to allow someone to be killed is the paternalistic thing—to turn a blind eye to it and do nothing about it. To make sure that it is genuinely that individual’s settled will is the opposite of paternalism. That is what we are trying to do in this group of amendments.

The first amendment I want briefly to refer to is Amendment 28 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. It is about setting out in the eligibility criteria that someone is entitled to benefits under the special rules, for example, personal independence payment on the grounds of terminal illness. I accept that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, may quibble with the wording, but the point is to make sure that the person has gone through that process to apply for that benefit to make sure that one of the reasons they are seeking assisted suicide is not because of financial pressure. There may be other ways of achieving that, but that is the purpose of the amendment, and that is very important.

The Committee will be aware that under our rules for personal independence payment, if you have a terminal illness diagnosis, there is a fast-track procedure, rightly, so that you can get financial support much quicker than under the normal process. That is very important to ensure that someone facing a terminal diagnosis does not have financial pressures added to all the other things they are dealing with. The amendment is a sensible way of ensuring that someone has got that financial support and to make sure that is not the reason they are seeking assisted suicide.

Secondly, I support Amendment 31 and Amendments 68 and 68A, to which I have attached my name. They would make sure that it is genuinely somebody’s own request. The reason why that is important is—we will hear from the noble and learned Lord in a minute about whether he thinks the drafting of the Bill already deals with this—that I am very mindful of the issue that we hear about pretty much every week, and I suspect we will hear it again today from the Minister, who usually has an extensive piece in her briefing that counsels us on concerns about the European Convention on Human Rights and the extent to which decisions that this Committee takes might end up being challenged under that legislation and that we should bear that in mind.

I always listen to the Minister with care, and I am effectively doing what she is asking us to do, which is to be concerned about that issue. Even if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, is able to assure us that, in his view, the Bill as drafted does not present that risk, I still want him to look seriously at these amendments because of my concern—which we have seen in other jurisdictions—about judicial oversight and judicial moving of the goalposts. This legislation will inevitably be challenged, and I want to make sure that we do not find judges starting to move the goalposts when there are challenges and allowing things to happen that we would not have wanted to happen.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

Every point that has been raised is valid, and I am sure that, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, gets up to respond, he will acknowledge those points as well. However, I think the question in each case is whether we want it to be a black or white assessment of whether that should apply.

Financial support is a very good example of where in some cases that may be very relevant and in others it may not. I remember that my mother, unfortunately, was given a matter of weeks to live and was helped on her way when there was a matter of days left. The financial circumstances just did not even come into it at that point, so having a black and white assessment saying, “Oh, she didn’t seek financial support or didn’t have it”, was not even a relevant criterion. On the question about mental health and whether someone has had any disorders, that is very relevant if it was a recent episode but I think we would probably say it was not very relevant at all if it was 50 or 60 years ago.

Therefore, in all these circumstances, are we not seeing cases where it depends on the circumstances? To me, it is a question of whether we trust the panel, and whether we trust the doctors assessing the case, who are looking into all the criteria and will have the opportunity to call for any evidence they need on it, to be able to do that.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that one of the problems is that the organisations of these very people whom we are trusting have said that they want clarification on these things. The issue, therefore, is that we should be giving them that clarification that they want, and then we can trust them. They say they do not want to be trusted unless they have that clarification. That is the only point we are trying to make.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Again, it is about whether you put that financial support clarification in black and white and say, “This must be something that someone’s done”, where it might not even be relevant to the circumstances, or where the—

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[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether I could briefly come back to something that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said. I have a great deal of respect for him, and I agree with a great deal of what he said in his speech just now, but I suggest that, when it comes to medical practitioners and the medical and caring profession, the word “concerns” does not mean that they are against the Bill. It is very important to understand that.

As a member or fellow of a number of these different organisations, what surprises me is how little of the correspondence from them is actually against the Bill. Sometimes there is some concern—of course, this needs reasonable regulation and proper agreement— but, overall, we must be very careful about how we understand their words. I have certainly not heard from my colleagues in many conversations over these past months that the Bill should be stopped. On the contrary; they are interested to see how it goes. I certainly think that many of them would say that they feel that this is a good Bill to look at.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

May I interrupt? I did not for one moment suggest that I was concerned about this because people were opposed to the Bill. What I said—indeed, I said this specifically—was that I was not thinking of those who were in principle opposed to the Bill. What I wanted to say was that specific concerns had been expressed, and that some of these amendments seek to meet the concerns of the very people who are going to carry this Bill through. I was not proposing this to stop the Bill; I was saying that even those of us who do not like the Bill want to do our job, which is to produce a Bill that will be at least, in the proper terms, workable. That is the only point I made.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for this conversation. I am glad to hear him say that but, unfortunately, the word “concerns” is often bandied about by people who just say, “Well, of course, the doctors are against this Bill”. That is not a fair assumption; it is certainly clear from the Select Committee evidence we heard that there are various opinions.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It is. The reason the two are different is that Clause 1(2) describes what is coming later in Clauses 8 to 30; Clause 1(3) is a mandatory requirement that the steps that come later have to take place when the person is in England or Wales. So they do different things. Subsection (2) is descriptive, and subsection (3) is a legal requirement. I am very happy to say that the shadow Attorney-General is nodding, which is very strengthening on this.

The one point that I have not dealt with properly, or at all, is that which the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, made about the interaction between the Mental Health Act and the Bill. I was not sure which specific amendment she was referring to; it may have been Amendment 38, but I do not know. However, as far as I can see, there is no legal difficulty in this Bill sitting with the Mental Health Act because, as long as these conditions are satisfied, the patient is entitled to have an assisted death. There is nothing in the Mental Health Act that would prevent that. I am more than happy to have a more detailed conversation with the noble Baroness and Professor Ruck Keene, if she wishes to bring him along and he is willing to come.

I hope that I have dealt with every amendment put forward.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Just one point, as a matter of personal explanation, I did not call the noble and learned Lord Stonewall; it was the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who did so and I do not want to take his excellent comment away from him.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise. I do not know whether the noble Lord feels that he is withdrawing a compliment or withdrawing an insult, but I get what he is doing.

To the noble Baroness, Lady Cash, before she gets to her feet, I say that she is right. In relation to the ECHR points that were raised by, I think, Mr Stevenson, who was the commissioner—I have the name wrong.

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However, for the reasons I have given, I am not in favour of trying to give specific excluded motivations or saying that it has to be due to pain and suffering or for your own sake. What is “your own sake”? How do you bear thinking about what your children feel? That could be an unbearable position.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Can I encourage the noble and learned Lord in what he has just said? I was going to intervene earlier, but decided I would wait for this moment. I am afraid the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, almost drove me to get up; she can say that she does not want to be a burden because she will not be one and I am quite sure her family would not let her be one. The truth of the matter is that we are concerned about making sure that people are given every opportunity to put themselves in the best position in the last six months of their lives. If the noble and learned Lord can find a way of having these questions asked without the disadvantage—I understand the point he makes—it would give us a great deal of support. I would like him to do that.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I hope I have been clear about not liking the amendments as they are and that I am keen to see whether what the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Newnham and Lady Fox, said can be incorporated somewhere in the Bill. It may well connect with things we have said already. I hope I have made my position clear.