Common Fisheries Policy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Deben Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, I too welcome the way in which these statutory instruments have been introduced to the House and welcome their gist, particularly in relation to inshore fishing. However, I will press the Minister on the question of the fishing industry in Northern Ireland. Once more we are reminded that the land border that has been between Northern Ireland and the Republic is soon to become the border between the EU and the UK. Because of that, there are special sensitivities, stretching into fishing among other industries, of which we must be aware.

I ask the Minister to address the issue of the relationship between fishing in what will then be the EU but is today the Republic of Ireland, and fishing from County Down and County Antrim in Northern Ireland. The reason I raise this is that recently there was an incident where two vessels from Northern Ireland ended up in police custody in the EU/Republic of Ireland. That was a misunderstanding, but it shows how easily the sensitivities over the way in which our waters are controlled and policed can boil over into actual incidents.

What consultation has there been, particularly with the Irish Republic, on the question of policing the Irish Sea waters? This issue is particularly concerning the fishing industry in Northern Ireland at the moment as we move towards Brexit. The detailed information that the SI contains can encourage confidence, but it indicates that there can be a great difference between the written word and practice. That applies equally to the fishing industry in Scotland so far as the Irish Sea is concerned.

I ask the Minister: can we expect real sensitivity on the question of the Northern Irish fishing industry after Brexit under the terms of this SI, given the proximity of the EU to the Irish Sea situation? This is not just an academic issue; it is one of deep concern to an industry that is already under great pressure.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I am the longest-serving Fisheries Minister. I am therefore very concerned to intervene in this debate.

I have always been surprised by the degree to which people talk about the common fisheries policy as if there were no need for a common policy. The policy may not be the best one that we could have, but the truth is that even after these SIs are passed the idea that we can take control of what we call “our” waters is just not true. Many of those waters, irrespective of the common fisheries policy, are shared. If you are only 22 miles from France, it is not surprising that many of these waters are shared and you need a common policy. These SIs fly in the face of any sense because we are not going to have a national policy except in the areas where, largely, we have already had one. The noble and right reverend Lord talked about inshore fishermen. We have been able to deal with the inshore fishermen for a very long time, even though many of them blame their situation on the common fisheries policy when it should be blamed on the British Government under various different parties.

A common policy is essential because, first, we have shared fishing grounds and, secondly, we have shared stock. Even if the fish happen to be in our waters at a particular time, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh pointed out, they may well have come from other waters. They do not carry flags. The fact is that unless you have a common policy about fish conservation, you find yourself in a very dangerous position, because one lot of fishermen can say, “Well, I’m not going to conserve if the other lot aren’t”—and of course all fishermen believe that other fishermen are not. Let us be perfectly clear about that point: if you have been Fisheries Minister for as long as I was, you discover that that is the case. I remember a man in my own constituency, in a small fishing village of about seven or eight boats in all, to whom, after a meeting when they were complaining about everything, I said: “I thought you were going to complain about that Belgian trawler”. “Ah”, he said, “them Belgian trawlers I can put up with. It’s Lowestoft men I can’t stand”.

The truth is that there is an ability between different fishing communities to find their neighbours not terribly helpful, so if the Government think they are going to have an easy time, I have to warn my noble friend that they are not. They can no longer blame the common fisheries policy; they will have to accept responsibility. However, they will not have the power because they will not be able to control the stocks; nor will they control the areas in which we have joint arrangements.

Historically, we dealt with that. There were a lot of fish and, if someone got in your way, a marlinspike was no doubt used. We then had a more sensible policy and we are now trying to move ourselves towards some way of relating to our neighbours. The noble and right reverend Lord from the north of Ireland made a very important point about the closeness, the lines and how you organise this. I am unhappy about this statutory instrument because it is another example of us trying to do something which is manifestly worse than what we had before.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this evening’s debate. It has certainly been a debate of great passion. I encourage all noble Lords to bring that passion to the discussions on the Fisheries Bill, during which I hope many of these issues will once again be aired in greater detail and by which we can put them in a legislative framework.

I am confident that these SIs mirror the existing EU rules, with the caveat that the rules must of course be operable. It would be pointless if we brought over rules which simply could not be operated once they reached our rulebook, so it is necessary for these SIs to look as they do. I accept that they are part of a suite of legislation. However, I would caveat that by saying that we are already fairly well down the road in the debate and discussions on the sort of national fisheries policy that we want to see in the future. As noble Lords will know, we have already had the fisheries White Paper. It went into quite some detail on what the Government feel is an appropriate national fishing policy. There was a 10-week consultation and we had a lot of feedback from various stakeholders.

What is also true is that we are leaving the European Union and, as such, we become an independent coastal state. Again, that comes with various obligations, many of which are about engaging with neighbouring coastal states and encouraging co-operation and the sharing of data. It includes encouraging the sustainability of the seas in which the fish live; when they travel across those borders, they definitely do not have a union Jack on them. I am not as pessimistic as my noble friend Lord Deben about it all being terrible and dreadful, with us being stuck out on our own. There are countries far smaller than us which have very successful negotiating strategies, are able to deal internationally and able to operate their own independent fishing policy.

I accept that we are on a journey and I hope that we get to the next stop on that journey very soon. I think all noble Lords would welcome the opportunity to have a go at the Fisheries Bill—I certainly would—but it is important that the SIs we have tabled for debate today are a temporary measure. They will put a line in the sand and say: “This is where we were at this point”. These measures will all make sense and enable us to operate the fishing policy that we currently have.

[Lord Deben]

All that my noble friend said in that last paragraph is true, except that there is a series of things which operate now and will be put into the Fisheries Bill. There are two problems with this. First, we do not know what or how those provisions will be, so we have to take it on her word—I am perfectly prepared to do so—that it will all be at least as good as the present arrangements. Has it occurred to Defra that it is a peculiar constitutional concept if the Minister asks the House to accept these laws on the basis that there will be laws, rather than having within these provisions an interim arrangement?

Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, made a point about something which I do not understand: that all these things could have been included as an interim arrangement, and that would remain or be changed when we come to the Fisheries Bill. For me, the difficulty is that I am being asked to support something which could have been complete—under the withdrawal Act, it should have been complete—but is not. It is just a promise that it will be completed in the future. I do not understand why that is.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I think my noble friend is slightly misconstruing my words: certainly, there are elements within the legislation that could not be brought over because of the withdrawal Act, because it would have made a change in policy or would have gone beyond the powers we have within the withdrawal Act. It was simply not possible to do so, so I am asking noble Lords to consider today that we are on a journey. We have already had a huge number of comments from Ministers in both Houses about where we feel our fisheries policy is going and where we would like it to go, but we would obviously like the support and input of noble Lords as we develop that policy. Even taken by themselves, we do not feel that there are significant omissions that cannot be explained by reasons other than that we are trying to put EU legislation into UK law and it has to work. It has to stand up for itself.