Trade Union Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Collins has drawn attention to the mandate and its expiry. In particular, he mentioned that a starting point of 28 days could possibly get up to about four months, depending on the circumstances and on the parties to the dispute and what action they may or may not take. The debate on this particular clause assumes that nothing changes during the period of notice. I think that that assumption is a luxurious one because I know of no dispute where nothing changes over three or four months.

What it really demands is a shift in objective. When you have a dispute, the issue is not about how long you maintain the dispute—either through statutory provisions or, indeed, bad personal relationships. The essence of the parties is, in fact, to try to find a solution to the dispute. What is depressing about this debate is that I have not heard the word “settlement” from either side—although primarily this is a government Bill. They took the initiative and are seeking to use their mandate to change the framework for the settlement of industrial disputes. But they have not used the word “settlement”. It is all about dates and the behaviour of one party or another.

I believe that if we are to construct an industrial relations framework that meets the modern demands of industry and, more importantly, society, we have to deal with it on a comprehensive basis—not just a piecemeal basis or saying how many months or days we mean. Nothing has been said about the instruments or the structures, and nothing has been said about arbitration or conciliation. Indeed, we will be told that negotiation is a matter for the parties. I understand that but we must have a Government who facilitate and persuade, because ultimately they are the Government and they have responsibility for maintaining not just law and order but an economy which is responsive to the ups and downs of consumers’ requirements, meeting all needs.

I trust that before very long the Minister will find some way of coming back to this House and indicating how we can have negotiations and discussions, even during the notice period. If the Bill is to be worthy of anything, it has to be tested on whether it reduces periods of industrial dispute time-wise and frequency- wise. That is the only way in which we can guarantee continuous growth in our economy and an improvement in the quality of life of all our citizens.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened to the debates on the last three amendments and have noticed a crucial fact. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, spoke of both sides of industry and the Government, and the noble Lord who spoke earlier talked about both sides of industry, but no one has spoken about the customers—the people who suffer because of a strike. I have sat through debates on trade union legislation ever since the Government of Edward Heath and what distresses me is that we still do not talk about the consumer or the customer—the person out there—upon whom both employer and employee depend for their future, their wages and their profits. I do not believe that strikes are about two sides; inevitably they are about three sets of people. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, admitted, a strike operates through pressure on the public. We also know that there are more strikes—at least more damaging strikes, as far as we can see—which attack the public as the mechanism for achieving their ends. If the railwaymen strike or the public sector strikes, it is the public against whom they are striking.

I make no comment about which of the two sides is more right than the other; there are appalling employers and there are pretty dreadful actions by trade unions. I am not in any way biased on this matter. As Members opposite know, I have had some significant concerns about this Bill and previous Bills, but I do think that somebody has to speak up for the customer. The amendment we are discussing suggests that it is acceptable to the customer to be told that a strike will take place based on a ballot that has taken place nine months before. To me, that seems unacceptable. Trade unions and employers should take seriously that they should not impose upon the public, upon whom they depend, that kind of, frankly, pretty random and arbitrary action.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I go back to Ted Heath and 1971 and 1972, as the noble Lord does. I think it is unnecessary to use over-the-top language such as “striking against the public”. Take the present dispute of junior hospital doctors. If you meet any of them, do they think that they are striking against the public? No, of course not. There is obviously a nuance—to put it mildly—between whether you are talking about the Secretary of State being the public or somebody else being the employer, or the issue of how many hours a week are being worked or whether you work on Saturdays and so on and so forth. It is not helpful to have this characterisation. Even though the metaphor of the two sides of industry is a well-known one, it is open to interpretation.

[Lord Deben]

It would obviously be unsuitable for me to make any comment whatsoever about the current strike, given my relationships. Therefore, I will keep away from that. However, I will take on very clearly the point that the noble Lord has made. One cannot possibly suggest that a railway strike is effective if it does not affect the railway passengers. To say, “I am striking but I do not mean to upset the passengers” is really a metaphor without meaning. The staff are striking because they do mean to upset the passengers, because that is the only way they think they can bring their case properly to the eyes of whichever British transport company is concerned. I do not in any way want to make the noble Lord unhappy, but one of the problems is that we pretend. We should not pretend: the purpose of a strike is to cause inconvenience in order that the management of whatever it is should give way.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I just want to correct the idea that nobody is concerned about the consequences of industrial action. Of course we are; all sides are very concerned. The evidence before us is that, in the day-to-day life of industrial relations, strikes are a matter of last resort. The evidence shows that most industrial action ballots result not in strike action but in speedier negotiations. In relation to this clause, does the noble Lord think it would help the process to have a continuous run of industrial action ballots if the negotiations have not been concluded within four months? The problem is that the negotiation period will move. It will not be four months and then a ballot; it will be before then. Will that help the speedy conclusion of negotiations?

[Lord Deben]

First, I did not accuse anybody of not caring about the passenger or the customer. I merely pointed out that in all the speeches I have heard from the other side nobody mentioned these people, so I cannot believe it is front-of-mind; I cannot believe that it is actually there. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, whom I listened to with great care, and respect considerably, suggested that she had a suspicion about the nature of these proposals. The suspicion was that they were not really about improving industrial relations, but were in some way of a party-political kind. Of course, we can all have our suspicions. I have a suspicion that people who do not mention the customers or the passengers or the rest are not as interested in them as they are in the trades unions themselves—

[Lord Oates]

Would the noble Lord accept on this point that many of us are opposed to most of the measures in this Bill precisely because we think it will be entirely counterproductive to good industrial relations—that it will lead to more action and more problems to the public? It is for exactly that reason that we opposed this unnecessary Bill in the coalition, and we will continue to oppose it here.

[Lord Deben]

I fear I have to say to the noble Lord that I am much older than he is. I remember exactly that argument—exactly that case—demanding that we should not have ballots, that it would extend the time that it would take to get rid of industrial disputes, that it was unnecessary to have them by post, and that it was perfectly possible to do all these things in the old-fashioned way. The very party that presented those arguments would not dream—well, I hope it would not dream, even under the present circumstances—of abolishing those things, yet the arguments all the way through were exactly the same as we have now. That does not mean to say that this Bill is a good Bill, or that this Bill is right. What it does mean is that many reasonable, centrist politicians—and I am one of them—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Deben]

If the noble Lords opposite do not think that, they had better have a few words with some of the Conservative associations in Britain. Simply speaking, it means that some of us who are reasonable and sensible about this do not immediately take for granted that every criticism of that sort may be true. That is the only position I am trying to put. I am asking some fundamental questions of the arguments that have been put forward opposite.

[Lord Oates]

I cannot account for the arguments that other people made a long time ago; as the noble Lord rightly states, I was rather younger then than I am now. When noble Lords on these Benches were dealing with these matters and bringing in laws—whatever he says, they were rules that I did not propose and never have—they were bringing them in to address a problem. This is a Bill that is a solution to a problem that is not there. If you look at the days lost to industrial action and the incredibly responsible behaviour of the trade unions during a period of unprecedented austerity, you will see that there is a difference. There was a big problem that they had to tackle, whereas this is a solution in search of a problem.

[Lord Deben]

I hoped that I was addressing this with a certain degree of care. I do not want to enter into the argument as to whether trade unions or employers have behaved in one way or another. I believe that industrial action from time to time is necessary. I have never disagreed with that. But it seems to me important—I think the party opposite agrees—that this should in fact be the last resort: you do not have industrial action unless you really need to have it. I hope that one of the reasons the party thinks that, although it has not referred to it, is that it inconveniences—and more than inconveniences—the public as a whole. It is not unreasonable to think seriously about some of the things that can be done to ensure that people are careful about this. That is on both sides; I do not suggest anything other than that.

It seems reasonable to say that you do not call a ballot unless you really need to have industrial action, and it is unlikely that the circumstances four months later or thereafter will be the same as when the ballot was held. That is the point that the noble Lord who spoke last put forward. I am afraid that that does not support his case; it supports my case. If there have been significant changes in those four months, it does not seem reasonable to rely on a ballot that took place in entirely different circumstances. You should have a ballot close to the point at which the industrial action is taken. I think that four months is rather a long time. A week is a long time in politics and four months is a long time in industrial relations. There are other things in the Bill that I am not very happy about, but this proposal seems perfectly reasonable.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The Bill removes the requirement to take industrial action within 28 days. Does the noble Lord think that that is correct? That is what it will do: take 28 days out and say four months. That will not aid the process. I accept what the noble Lord said about strikes being a matter of last resort and that they are to be avoided, but on industrial action ballots the Government should not try to interfere with industrial relations in the way they have. The fact is that the most leverage a union has on an employer is not the industrial action it takes, but the mandate achieved through industrial action ballots.

[Lord Deben]

I give way regularly because I much prefer debate in this House. I do not much like the system that we have where you put down your name to speak and then nobody ever interrupts you; I always thought that that is not of as much interest and I am all in favour of changing it. I have given way, but I will not be led astray on to other issues. The issue I put forward is very simple: it does not seem sensible to rely on a ballot that took place more than four months ago to take industrial action, given that the change in circumstances may well be considerable, as the noble Lord said. That is why I would like to hear more about the customer and the fact that we ought to rely on a system where people know, with some immediacy, what the question is, vote on it and then take action.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Deben that strikes are, on the whole, to be avoided. The question is whether Clause 8, which I am talking about, not the Bill as a whole, assists in the removal of strike action or industrial action. The union has a very strong mandate once it succeeds in a ballot, assuming that that is how things develop. Therefore, it is important that the time given by that is not unnecessarily restricted. If progress is to be made in eliminating the need for a strike, it will be at its best after the union gets a mandate to have industrial action, if it is necessary. This is a critical period for the success of negotiations. One can see that negotiations sometimes take some time. They may progress rather slowly, but if they progress at all they are worth taking. I think very much of the customers, passengers or whatever affected by strike action. That is something the Bill should aim to reduce. Therefore, once a mandate has been given by a ballot, it should be worked out so far as possible.