Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Tuesday 27th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it is my great pleasure to open my speech by offering congratulations on the maiden speeches by Members of my Benches. My noble friend Lady Hughes chose to speak early after her introduction in the House in a debate on an area on which she has considerable expertise. How blessed she is that the opportunity fell to her, but how well she discharged her responsibility and how much we appreciate the fact that she emphasised that all law has to be put in the context of the community that it is there to serve and regulate. She identified a context in which we also safeguard ourselves by the actions that we take in relation to the communities that we serve, as well as by the laws that we enact.

My noble friend Lord Davies threatens to make the name Davies the largest patronymic in the House—that is not something that I could have said before the 1958 Act with regard to life Peers. I welcome him and the great expertise and achievements that he will bring as talents to this House in a range of debates. He quite characteristically did today what I am sure we will enjoy in future: he added a dimension to the debate that might not have been entirely anticipated. I am not sure how the Minister is going to react to the issue of piracy and how it relates to terrorism, but I am certain that what my noble friend identified is a grievance that we all feel with regard to international law and the safeguarding of all who travel on the seas at present. I am grateful to my noble friend for already giving us a flash of the range of inspiration that I know he will bring to subsequent contributions to the House. I am grateful, and quite sure, that both noble Lords will be making their speeches in future with that degree of regularity that we all hope for from those who have a lot to offer.

The Minister engages my sympathy to a degree. After all, only yesterday he was engaged in a major debate on the Finance Bill. It was large enough for him to feel that he ought to break almost all records for a summing-up speech. I hope that we have not presented quite that challenge to him today. Nevertheless, the very late arrival in the list—in fact, in the gap—of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York added force on those issues that I know the Minister recognises as critical, which we are all anxious about with regard to this legislation. All I can say to the Minister is that he will have quite an energetic time in Committee. He must hope that the several weeks’ break before we engage in the Committee will enable him to meet the challenges raised today.

Those challenges have come from all sides and rest largely on the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, was the first to identify. Since he is a member of the Constitution Committee, it is not surprising that he would identify its key anxieties about the legislation, with his dire warnings of the extent to which he might engage with these issues in Committee—as if we ever doubted that they would be discussed thoroughly there.

The important thing about this legislation is that it was somewhat rushed into being following the previous, unsatisfactory position, with the orders being struck out by the Supreme Court. Hurried legislation had to be introduced. My noble friend Lord Myners played his full part in that. I noted in his speech an element of reservation about where we are now. An advantage of being in opposition is perhaps that it gives a little freedom from the constraints of responsibility that affect the Treasury Bench, but my noble friend is nothing except honest in wrestling with these issues.

Nevertheless, the Opposition will need some persuading by those who are advocating significant amendment to the Bill before we subscribe to it. Of course, I recognise the great concern felt about civil liberties and the exercise of the rule of law—it has been expressed with great passion by almost every contributor to this debate—and we all share those anxieties. However, there is also the necessity for our society to defend itself. I understand entirely why the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, indicated anxiety about reasonable suspicion being the test. The most reverend Primate also indicated from a strong moral base his acute anxiety.

However, an element of this legislation makes it a little different from all other criminal legislation. That relates to the concept of prevention as well as retribution. Governments have as a prime responsibility for the safety of the citizen. That is why the arguments over the great evolution of the law and the developing democracy of the United Kingdom that obtained in the 19th and 20th centuries took a savage turn for the worse as a result of the real problems that terrorism presented for the community. That is why Governments have to act in haste. The necessity of the defence of the citizen is also why the basis of the legislation on which they work may come closer to infringing civil liberties.

If we did not have this debate in this House, our democracy would be all the poorer and I have no doubt that, when the Bill gets to the other end, the other place will benefit enormously from the extent to which we have explored these issues. However, we as the Opposition are concerned about changes to the legislation, although we obviously appreciate that the present Administration are faced with legislation that has a terminal date and must be replaced by this Bill.

I hear on all sides the other great concept—that of getting this issue into a consolidated measure, which would make it so much clearer and more effective in the courts. However, consolidation is no easy matter. The Administration must perforce get this legislation on to the statute book in a limited period because of the sunset clause that was quite properly applied to the legislation that pertains at present.

I say to all noble Lords who have spoken so strongly and so passionately in this important debate that I hope that the Minister will be able to give solace to those who have expressed anxieties. I also hope that the review will be productive enough, and early enough, to inform our Committee proceedings, as that would certainly help us in those proceedings. However, I do not hold out too much hope on the issues of cardinal principle that are contained in this legislation. At present, the Opposition see no difference between the way in which this Government should act and the way in which we acted to protect our citizens when we enjoyed power.