Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, it is a great honour to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere. We have heard some painful stories this afternoon—it was very moving to hear the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick— but we need to remember that, as the Minister for Women and Equalities said in the other place,

“we can tackle these issues with existing law”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/11/22; col. 886.]

Advocates for a Bill against conversion therapy cite forced marriage, physical abuse, coercion, threats of physical violence and verbal abuse as some of the practices that need to be prevented. Thankfully, however, there are already laws on our statute book dealing with these things. As has been stated numerous times in the House today, the UK has an array of laws already in force that rightly prohibit genuinely reprehensible behaviour of the kind sometimes identified by advocates of new legislation. We do not need this Bill to deal with those things; we simply need to enforce the existing law.

Therefore, we need to ask what else the Bill seeks to address. My great concern is that what may be regarded as conversion therapy by advocates of the Bill is not abuse but the expression of certain opinions. Definition has been cited already as a major concern. The Church of England paper which we referred to earlier states that there is no clear or fully agreed definition. The Ban Conversion Therapy campaign includes controversial groups such as Mermaids and Stonewall. In one of its briefings, it calls for private prayer and casual conversations to be brought within the scope of the Bill. Could private prayer and casual conversations fall within the present Bill? I fear that they could. We could see innocent people criminalised for everyday conversations—not for brutalising people, not for some violent programme of brainwashing but simply for talking with other people.

We must not allow this to become a new speech crime, where those who are deemed to hold wrong opinions are prosecuted for mere words. It would be a disaster for free speech and religious freedom. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, was recently appointed as a patron of Humanists UK. I wonder whether she agrees with its response to the government consultation on banning conversion therapy, which says that a Bill must cover

“verbal communications … such as confessions/repentances”.

As has been stated, central to the Christian faith is the call for all people to turn to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. This necessarily involves confession and repentance. As the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, has firmly stated, these are ongoing and necessary aspects of living the Christian life for millions of people in this country.

Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects freedom of religion and belief—not just the freedom to believe things in your head but to explain your beliefs to others and invite others to embrace them. It protects the freedom to change your religious beliefs and thousands do, every year. The freedom to repent protects what Christians call conversion, which is essential to the Christian experience. On that note, I am rather disturbed to see “conversion” used in the title of the Bill in such a negative sense. The experience of Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus was an amazing, positive experience and has been for millions since. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, I am an enthusiast for conversion.

I had planned to reference what has been in place in Victoria, Australia, but the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, has very powerfully explained the risks of going down that route, as has the noble Baroness, Lady Meyer. Such a law would be wholly intolerant of Christians who hold orthodox convictions. Such beliefs may no longer be fashionable, but should it really be illegal to invoke them in your prayers?

Returning to what I said at the very beginning, the UK already has comprehensive laws against abuse and coercion. Victims should be helped to pursue justice within the current legal framework. New legislation in this area is not only unnecessary but, as has been said a number of times, dangerous, since it threatens to criminalise harmless behaviour.

UK-EU Trade and Co-operation Agreement

Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts

Thursday 29th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I of course agree with my noble friend. Northern Ireland is fully part of this United Kingdom, as the protocol makes clear. I agree that the best way forward would be for the Commission to continue the dialogue that it has begun with us in the hope that we can enable the protocol to be operated in a proportionate and pragmatic way. Those discussions are under way and there is some momentum in them but, unfortunately, significant differences remain and we will need to work those through in the weeks to come.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, my interests are as recorded in the register. I should like to explore with the Minister the issue of equivalence in food production standards, which have not changed since we left the European Union. Can we now assume that trade will be freed up as a consequence of yesterday’s decision?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, we made clear during the negotiations, and continue to make clear, that we would be ready to agree an arrangement with the EU based on equivalence. We believe that our standards of food security and biosecurity more generally are certainly equivalent. The EU was not willing to negotiate that issue last year but we remain open to discussing that this year if it would like to change its position.

EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Lord Curry of Kirkharle Excerpts

Friday 8th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, my interests are as recorded in the register. There is no question of the importance and lasting consequences of this agreement. It is eminently preferable to have a deal and a close working relationship with our neighbours in Europe than to have no deal, so I congratulate the Government on the agreement.

I welcome the Government’s efforts to ensure that temporary workers can continue to come and work in the United Kingdom and benefit our economy. We rely on seasonal workers in the agricultural and horticultural sectors, as the Minister is well aware. We also rely on vets from the EU in our abattoirs—indeed, a Lords environment committee report confirmed that 90% of slaughterhouse vets were EU nationals. Can the Minister confirm that seasonal workers and vets will continue to be able to work in the United Kingdom within the terms of the agreement and say how this relates to the Government’s immigration policy and the proposed points-based system?

I would like further clarity on the independent body that the Government are required to set up to monitor domestic competition law and state aid rules. Further details on whether this is to be a new body or whether the Government intend to revise the powers of an existing body would be welcome.

Finally, I am interested in how the Government intend to respond to the country of origin requirement in the agreement. I fully understand why this has been included in the deal: to prevent back-door, tariff-free imports into the European Union. Does the Minister agree that this is a unique opportunity for the UK to re-energise its manufacturing base, including primary production of food, so that, in complying with the agreement, we are able to export from a growing production and manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom? The weakness of our manufacturing base was embarrassingly exposed when in crisis. We had to pay exorbitant prices for PPE at the start of the pandemic. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will encourage domestic manufacturing and production so that not only can we export within the rules but look forward to an age when we at home can purchase home-produced goods instead of relying on a “Made in China” label, and how they intend to do this?