Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Cope of Berkeley Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

My Lords, we have criss-crossed the issues of principle over these two days, but I will not add to that element of the discussion. At this stage of this long debate, I want to stick to constitutional points. Various speeches, starting with the courageous speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dear, have referred to the constitutional position of the House of Lords. Doubt has been cast, by him and others, on the validity of the Commons’ decision. It is said that the Whips overdid it to such an extent that we should discount the Commons’ two-to-one support for the Bill, and should use our undoubted reserve power to refuse to discuss the Bill any further. That view is mistaken.

It exaggerates the Whips’ influence, particularly on a free vote on a matter of conscience, and I speak as a former government Whip in the Commons for eight years, during two Parliaments. It also discounts the constituency pressures on MPs. We have heard about the lack of commitment in the most recent manifestos, but it is not the previous election that focuses MPs’ minds on constituents’ views when deciding how to speak or vote; rather, it is the next election that they are looking at. That is why they pay careful attention to constituents’ views, late in a Parliament in particular, in politically uncertain times. There is no excuse for this appointed House to overrule the elected House and say that the Bill is so erroneous that we refuse to discuss it further.

[Lord Waddington]

Perhaps my noble friend will forgive me if I raise one point with him. Have there not been numerous occasions when this House, even when it was largely hereditary, rejected Bills that had come here from the House of Commons on Second Reading? I have a big memory of the War Crimes Bill that came here from the House of Commons having been passed there by an almighty majority, far greater that the majority given to this Bill in the House of Commons. Nobody in this place suggested that anyone would be behaving improperly if that Bill was rejected by this House. What has changed?

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

I think that my noble friend exaggerates when he says that there have been numerous examples. There have been examples, of course, mainly of Private Members’ Bills being defeated at Second Reading when they were being put forward by noble Lords in this House, but that is a different matter. I also draw my noble friend’s attention to the fact that Bills like the one to which he refers, the War Crimes Bill, have nevertheless become law without the House of Lords being able to contribute through a Committee stage to the detailed provisions of it. We have had numerous references in the debate to matters that require further discussion but by definition, if the Parliament Act is used, it is the Bill as it stands that becomes law in those cases.

[Lord Elton]

May I correct my noble friend? The Bill that is sent back from the House of Commons in its original form comes to this House in the next Session. It is then open to this House either to reject it again and it goes on the statute book as it is in its present state, or to take it through all its usual stages and for it be amended by this House in the normal way.

[Lord Cope of Berkeley]

I am aware of that. Nevertheless, it is entirely possible that it becomes law exactly in the position in which it now stands.

The question that underlies this is whether we or the House of Commons are the better judges of changing public attitudes on matters such as this. With our average age, I do not think that we are the better judges. As I have indicated, another theme of the debate is whether the safeguards for the churches, teachers and registrars are sufficient, and whether the Bill is properly drafted. That is for the House to consider in Committee. The Commons Committee stage has also been criticised, but that is not a reason to avoid a Committee stage here. It is a reason for having one, to consider the detailed provisions with care and the expertise that are available to this House. This revising Chamber should not block the Commons’ will so clearly expressed and refuse to consider what revisions may be desirable. I shall therefore vote against the amendment and for the Second Reading.