Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Colwyn Excerpts

Monday 17th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I am a little confused. Amendment 1B was grouped with the previous amendment moved by the noble Baroness. Are the opposition Benches not following the groupings that have been published for this afternoon? If so, could we have a sight of the groupings that they are working to?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Obviously noble Lords are able to speak to any amendment as it comes up on the Order Paper. I agree that Amendment 1B was not in the original grouping.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I apologise to the noble Baroness; it was late notice, but we understood that in the latest official groupings Amendment 1B was to be degrouped. If it is not on the official groupings list, I present my apologies to her in pre-empting that position. It was our intention to keep the Welsh amendment separate because although he indicated aspects of principle on which he did not agree with our other amendments, he indicated that Committee stage is a time when we can consider issues in the round. Although he has indicated his reservations about the previous amendments, it is only appropriate for me to emphasise the importance of Amendment 1B and say that in our general consideration, we recognise the position of Wales.

The Scottish position is covered by similar provisions in the Climate Change Act 2008, so issues with regard to Scotland do not need to be considered specifically in this legislation. Issues with regard to Wales do need to be considered, however, particularly against a background where—as the Minister knows only too well, with the impending referendum on the powers of Wales—this is quite an important year for the devolution settlement. My noble friend Lord O’Neill identified the fact that there is a vast difference between the objectives and aspirations that the Welsh Assembly Government might have and their ability to translate these into achievements in terms of the resources which they have at their disposal and can command. That is an issue to be settled much later this year.

When the Minister is considering the issues which my noble friend has raised on the Green Deal, I suggest that he respects the position of Welsh Ministers and the role of the Welsh Assembly. I beg to move.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I should not interrupt at this stage but perhaps it will help the Committee if I clarify one point. Because different groupings lists are circulating, and I have an older list, I should point out that the Question we are discussing now is whether Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill, and Amendment 38 is grouped with it.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I reiterate the point that was made by the noble Baroness just before she sat down. There are references to upcoming statutory instruments. They are mentioned in Clause 1 and two of them are of more than passing significance. It would be helpful if in this stand-part discussion the Minister could give us some indication of what is meant by an eligible property and some guidance relating to energy efficiency improvements. We are not asking him to give us chapter and verse but to give us a rough outline. These two things are obviously at the very heart of the Green Deal. It would be helpful if at this stage we could begin to get some kind of idea of what the Government have in mind in respect of upcoming statutory instruments.

We have had a passage of some three or four weeks. Admittedly there was the Christmas and new year break. Nevertheless, it is not beyond the wit and capability of the department and the officials. The Minister should have been asking for this to get some kind of rough outline of two of the central points of the Green Deal that appeared in Clause 1; that is to say the qualifying energy efficiency improvements and what is meant by eligible properties. If we could get some kind of clear indication on and definition of these points at this stage, it would assist us. It would perhaps diminish the need for us to continue to ask the Government for definitions and statutory instruments—albeit in a consultative form—at every stage and turn. We can make considerably more progress if we receive that than we are likely to make if we do not get it.

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[Lord Grantchester]

Other noble Lords have alluded to their experience of rising to speak in this Room for the first time. For myself, I am feeling extremely immature, and perhaps appropriately in this Room, I feel I have been put into a little basket and pushed out from the sides.

Our amendment has been tabled not because we oppose the objectives behind the Green Deal scheme, but to take the opportunity to ask the Government further questions about how it is intended to work in practice. In doing so, we hope to build on the constructive conversations we have already heard today on Clause 1.

Clause 2 sets out further introductory measures to the intended scheme. Key terms are defined. It is here that we learn that the improver of the property for the purposes of the scheme may be either the occupier or the owner. We support the principles behind this proposal. Both parties have the opportunity to develop an intimate knowledge of the property, with either party being potentially willing to take the initiative and improve the energy efficiency of the property. This can only be encouraged. What we should add, however, is that further consideration should be given to the consent to the other party being given to any improvements from the party who is not the improver in each case. This should be an informed decision with the full suite of options provided, including those that exceed the maximum finance or sit outside the Green Deal where this is clearly marked.

We also consider that the Bill needs to be clear about who is responsible for ongoing maintenance of any improvements that are installed. It is for this reason that we have tabled Amendments 16A and 16B, which we will have the opportunity to debate later in Committee.

In moving Amendment 1D I shall also speak to Amendments 2A, 2AA and Clause 2 stand part. My noble friend Lord Whitty, who is not in his place, will, I assume, speak to Amendment 2 which proposes that the Green Deal provider may offer measures only if they have taken all reasonable steps to install minimum measures for improving efficiency of electricity, gas or other sources of prescribed energy on the property.

Other key elements of Clause 2 are the types of measures that will be included as energy efficiency improvements to the property. It is here that we have tabled amendments to include a specific reference to renewables. This was a topic that I raised at Second Reading and one that I think should be included within the Bill. There are gains to be found from implementing some of the more expensive energy efficiency measures. Necessarily, the renewable heat incentive income could be a key element, leading to a reduction of the capital and running costs of any renewable heat installation, as less capacity will be required. I emphasise again that this would be a win-win situation.

We also consider that more needs to be done to co-ordinate the feed-in tariff with the energy efficiency measures in the Bill. At Second Reading I noted that,

“if the generating equipment provides excess electricity above the needs of the property, any excess capacity can be exported to the grid”.—[Official Report, 22/12/10; col. 1105.]

We would be able to reuse the energy by working out collectively the sentiment that our party wholeheartedly supports. It is important to note that, for the consumer, homeowners who are not connected to the grid stand to benefit the most from installing renewable heat technologies, since they would be protected from volatility in the price of fuel oil.

I would be greatly interested in seeing more details in the Bill about the Government’s intentions in respect of renewables, as it must be a key objective to reduce carbon omissions and the use of fossil fuels. It must make sense to specify renewables and low-carbon technologies, rather than expect their inclusion under the words,

“or any other source of energy”,

hence the specific inclusion. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

We are back now on the original Marshalled List. The manuscript amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is on a separate piece of paper and is included in this group.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I begin with an apology that I did not table this amendment until this morning. Last week we were fairly heavily involved on various energy matters and I am afraid I only got round to it over the weekend. Compared with the substantial points outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, this is a very minor point and is solely about drafting.

I suggest an amendment to the first line of Clause 2(7) because it refers to the wrong paragraph in the subsection above. Clause 2(7) seeks to enlarge and define the matters that were included in subsection (6)(a). Therefore, for Clause 2(7) to refer to subsection (5)(b)(ii) is wrong because that only refers to the order. I mentioned subsection (6). I beg the Committee’s pardon—it is subsection (5), but it refers to matters in subsection (5)(a) and not subsection (5)(b). I wonder whether it is a misprint or whether there is some hidden matter of drafting which I have not appreciated.