Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I should tell her that it is not that she has failed, just that she has not succeeded yet in some of the important aims that she has close to her heart.

I shall say a little bit about the first of the two Bills. I welcome the Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill. I agree that the idea of postponing the date for the next revaluation to 2023, when it was originally to have been brought forward to 2021, makes sense in the context of the pandemic. I think that is the right move. The only points that I would make in relation to that are, first, to stress the importance of continuing the business rates holiday for retail during the pandemic. I welcome the fact that we have had it in this financial year but, clearly, in the next financial year it will be equally important, at least for part of that financial year, as I see it.

As my noble friend the Minister made clear, there remain long-term issues about the fair treatment of town centre retail and the proper taxation of online sales and out-of-town businesses, which we need to deal with. Clearly, that has been heightened in the pandemic. We have all welcomed online sales during the pandemic; they have performed very well. But it highlights the need to have a different tax treatment from the one that we have at present. But I certainly welcome that piece of legislation.

I turn to the second Bill. I should say that I see no problem in dealing with both Bills together at Second Reading. As I understand it, they will be separate for Committee and Report, and I welcome that, too. The second Bill is also welcome; it is virtually identical to one that your Lordships may recall I took through Second Reading in July 2019—the only difference being the retrospective nature of the tax relief that is going to be part of the scenario in this current legislation for the present financial year. That Bill fell with the prorogation and, essentially, this is the same legislation being brought forward again.

I recall from that time—and I highlight an issue that has been mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, just now—the issue of the separate assessment requirement. The problem with the legislation—and I recall looking to see whether there was a possibility of doing some apportionment—is that, unless the public lavatory is separately assessed as a single unit, the possibility of the business rate relief is not there. If it is part of a shopping centre, a museum or a library or, indeed, if it is with a council car park, the likelihood is that business rate relief will not be forthcoming, as the Bill is structured, because it has to be separate standing. That does not mean that it is not a welcome piece of legislation, but it is a defect, if what we are seeking to do is to improve the scenario demonstrably by ensuring that it is far more likely that we get a good spread of public lavatories throughout the country.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, that we need to look at this as a more serious issue than is covered by this piecemeal reform, welcome as it is. There is an issue, which we can all identify with as we go around the country and go into our own towns and communities, of the need for proper provision that can be welcomed and held up as an exemplar of what we do as a country. If my noble friend the Minister could say something about the possibility of apportionment or a more widespread reform, so we can have wider relief, that would be welcome.

I agree about the welcome measures that are there—the community toilet scheme referenced by my noble friend, and the Use Our Loos campaign funded I think by Domestos, which is also worthwhile. I also very much welcome the Changing Places toilet scheme. Could my noble friend say something about the MHCLG consultation, which I think ended in 2019, on how we are going to carry that forward and do more? As the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, said, that again is much needed, and something that any civilised society would want to do.

Like others, I welcome the fact that Wales is signing up to both pieces of legislation. That is absolutely right and welcome. The only other issue that I will mention briefly is in relation to Network Rail. As I Minister, I talked with Network Rail about extending free entry for its managed stations, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was also keen on. I think that we discovered that all mainline stations in London had free entry except for Marylebone, for some reason. Does the Minister have any update on that, or could he look at it and let me know by letter and copy it to the Library, about the position there? I very much welcome these two measures and will certainly support the Bills.