Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my interests as listed in the register and the published declarations therein.

I want to speak to Amendment 1, proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, which relates to the directors supplying a list of creditors to the monitor. I supported this amendment in Committee. I have had the advantage of seeing the letter, shared with me by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and can see that my noble friend the Minister has gone some considerable way to allaying concerns by setting out proposals about inquiries that the monitor must make and the policing of the whole procedure by the Insolvency Service. I thank him very much for that. I think that that will be effective, and the letter was indeed very helpful. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, I hope that it is shared with other noble Lords by placing a copy of it in the Library.

Perhaps I may touch briefly on something else that I spoke about in Committee. I voiced concern at the lack of any express provision in the Bill requiring the monitor to be independent of the company. The monitor is an officer of the court and is required to be a qualified person, defined as an “insolvency practitioner”. That is reassuring up to a point but there is no express condition that the monitor should be independent of the directors of the company who appoint the monitor; nor is there any provision in the legislation for challenge of an appointment. Perhaps the Minister can put on the record today, or in a letter subsequently, how he sees the professional bodies policing the independence requirement, in the same helpful way as he wrote to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, on the inquiries relating to the requirement for the listing of assets and liabilities.

Subject to that, I very much welcome the moves that the Government have made between Committee and Report. They have gone some considerable way to allaying concerns expressed in Committee.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this Bill, when enacted, will be the guide—even the bible—of the monitor. I agree with Amendment 14 and shall speak on it very briefly. My noble friends Lady Bowles and Lady Kramer have explained in detail the reasons for supporting and promoting the amendment, which, to remind noble Lords, would place a restriction on enforcement and legal proceeding, stating that banks and other financial creditors must not have an advantage.

My concern goes back to the philosopher Thucydides, who said something along the lines of “Words change their meaning”. What are “financial creditors”? What is “not having an advantage”? Sometimes the meaning is in the eye of the beholder or in the minute printing of the 240 pages of the Bill.

If Amendment 14 is agreed, as I hope it will be, I shall welcome the Minister’s assurance, at least for the record, that HMRC’s VAT debt, about which I spoke at least twice in earlier proceedings, will not be viewed as the debt of a financial creditor seeking yet more preferential terms. The Finance Bill 2019-21, which we have put aside and hardly mentioned during these debates, seeks to give preference to HMRC for VAT. This undermines the whole principle of this legislation, which I believe is, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said, based on the idea that “We are all in it together”. If, even unintentionally, the banks or HMRC are given preference in the Finance Bill 2019-21, we will not all be in it together; some will be more equal than others.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 40 in the names of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend Baroness Fookes. I share the concern about the retrospective nature of some of the amendments. I accept that in extremis, in rare situations, retrospective legislation may be justifiable, but I would welcome the Minister addressing why it is felt to be appropriate here.

At Second Reading I expressed my concern that the offence of wrongful trading is being disregarded in relation to matters that are not Covid-19-related. It is quite reasonable, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has just indicated, that there should be some mitigation of the provisions in relation to Covid-19-related deaths. However, if the insolvency is not due to Covid-19, it is hard to see why the provision should be suspended. This provision, brought in as a result of the recommendations of the Cork committee in the 1980s, was widely welcomed as tackling conduct by directors acting—or in some cases, failing to act—with malfeasance, resulting in companies having substantial debts and doing damage to employees and shareholders. I can see why that may need to be suspended for Covid-19-related deaths, but this goes further. That is why I support this amendment, which would minimise the effect of the suspension of wrongful trading. It would be suspended not in relation to broader activities but only to those concerning Covid-19-related deaths.

However, of greater concern, as we have just heard, is the retrospective nature of this part of the Bill. I would welcome the Minister addressing these points. In any event, the Government have gone further on wrongful trading than they should have. They are seeking to punish creditors who have debts that could well be enforced, as they have nothing to do with the Covid-19 emergency.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, for listening to what was clearly a compelling speech by me in Committee and bringing forward Amendment 39, which extends from 30 June to 30 September the period during which the relaxation of judgment in relation to wrongful trading will apply. I say this not because of any wish to encourage wrongful trading or to see people who trade wrongfully not properly held to account by a court, but because I know from experience of helping companies trying to get through periods of instability—charities, in my case—that they simply may not know at this point whether they will be wrongfully trading next month.