Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Ashton for introducing this Second Reading debate and all noble Lords who have participated in it. I am grateful for their contributions and for the welcome—so far as it went. This was, predictably, a wholehearted welcome but with regret for some things which the legislation did not contain. I can understand that, and I will deal with it shortly.

I will focus first on what the Bill does contain. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is absolutely right: it is an important facet of the legislation that it helps the residential sector as well as business and provides assistance for the 5G mobile connectivity element, as referred to by the noble Baroness. The objective of this measure is to support and reward companies which invest in the telecoms network. As such, it is important to appreciate that this is actually buying something. This dates from April 2017 so we therefore do not propose to compensate any fibre which was already in the ground in February 2017. This is for new fibre put down for a five-year, fixed-term period. This brings me to the gaming aspect: I too was keen to know whether this was likely to be gamed. On consultation and inquiry it looks unlikely but we are watching this like hawks. If noble Lords think there is some means by which it could be gamed I invite them to let us know because we are, obviously, seeking to make sure it is not. I am pretty convinced that it could not be, because the financial incentive would be zero.

As we have heard in the debate, this is a technical area in respect of both telecommunications networks and how they are treated in business rates. We will, no doubt, return to the detail in Committee, but I reassure the House that we intend to develop the proposals for this measure in collaboration with the sector and only after consultation. The draft regulations are out for consultation at the moment and that will go on until 21 November. There is still an opportunity for everybody to participate in that and I encourage experts and politicians—do not take that the wrong way—to do so, particularly those who understand it in detail and politicians who represent those who do. My noble friend Lady Harding clearly understands this area very well, as does the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. I am very grateful for their participation and for giving the House the benefit of their expertise.

Broadband speeds and connectivity impact on the everyday lives not just of businesses but of households. Investment in new fibre will make a real change to people’s lives and is part of a package worth over £1 billion to the sector, as my noble friend Lord Ashton outlined. Providing rate relief for new fibre will give a welcome boost to investment. My noble friend Lady Harding asked about access to BT lines. They are consulting on that at the moment and we regard it as important. In terms of the rates relief offered, there will be a level playing field for participants in the system. No fear or favour is given to any provider: they are all treated in the same way.

It is important and fair to all ratepayers that telecoms operators pay business rates in the normal way, outside this five-year period where there is relief. We will not therefore seek to provide relief in relation to dark fibre, which would clearly be wrong. However, we have heard concerns about business rates deterring investment in new fibre, and providing this temporary relief from business rates just for new fibre investment would send a clear message to operators. If you invest in new fibre after 1 April 2017 you will not pay rates on it until 2022. For that new investment, you can remove business rates from the spreadsheet. As my noble friend Lady Harding indicated, that is important for getting investment going in this area where we lag behind. This legislation has some important provisions.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised the issue of the Henry VIII clause. As he will know, consistent with my approach to legislation I am very keen to bear down on this, so I have looked at it to make sure that it is as confined as it can be. I well remember the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, participating in our proceedings and rightly being tough on Henry VIII clauses. This has not yet gone to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee but it will do so. As I say, we seek to confine it as much as is sensibly possible and, of course, it will be subject to affirmative resolution. I hope that both those points reassure the noble Lord.

Such is the technical and fast-moving nature of the sector that I do not think it would be prudent to try to put on the face of the Bill the detailed arrangements of the scheme. These will be done in the detailed regulation through consultation and discussion. I know that noble Lords will understand that. However, we want to ensure that the House is fully aware of how we intend to operate this measure. As I have said, we have published draft regulations and are continuing discussions with the sector, and the Committee stage will give us the opportunity to consider these matters in more depth.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, sought, somewhat mischievously, as is his wont, to try to open this issue of rate relief on a much broader front all over the place. I have indicated previously that we remain very much wedded to the retention of business rates. I have also indicated that we will want to look at the broader issue of the high street versus the internet in the context of the G8—I think I am right in saying that—in which we participate, and take a lead on that. I think that is due next spring, so I can give the noble Lord that reassurance.

As I said, draft regulations will come forward. I reassure those who have a close connection with local government—the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, raised this issue—that local authorities will not be financially disadvantaged as a result of the relief. We will, through grant payments, compensate local authorities for the loss of the rates income that they suffer through the rates retention scheme as a result of this relief. This is a commitment that I am happy to restate and it is also given in the consultation document.

I thank all Members who have participated for the support that they have shown, at least in terms of the central core of this legislation. The commitment to provide rate relief on new fibre was given by the Chancellor in the Autumn Statement 2016. To maximise the benefit of this policy, telecoms operators need to be confident that the relief will be applied retrospectively to April 2017. I confirm that that will be the case. That is why we have brought forward the Bill as quickly as we have, with the support of the Opposition Benches, certainly in the other place and here too, to send a clear signal to the sector that this relief is on its way. With that, I commend this legislation to the House.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Pinnock]

My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, because he, like I did in previous amendments, seeks to focus the relief provided in the Bill on those places and areas that need it most. He is asking to put in safeguards to prevent some companies deliberately laying cable with no purpose and to ensure that what is done on rate relief achieves the outcome the Government seek, which is to provide more domestic premises and businesses with fast broadband connectivity. I look forward to the response from the Minister—I am not sure which one, perhaps it will be a double act. The questions that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has raised are important and need an answer.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, on this occasion I am genuinely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for raising this matter. I am not always grateful to him for raising matters but I am today. I am grateful also to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for her comments. We have a shared interest here, in that I cannot believe that anybody wants to see gaming in the system.

Concerns about gaming in the proposed rate relief for new fibre were raised by a small number of operators in August, when we first shared with them our proposals for the draft regulations. As the noble Lord has said, my noble friend Lady Harding raised this issue at Second Reading. I think she went on to say that she was not by any means convinced that there would be gaming but she raised it as a concern, so we share an interest in ensuring that there is not gaming.

Other operators have told us that they do not believe there is scope for gaming and support the proposed scheme. Nevertheless, we take this matter seriously and have been investigating these claims. Overall, our initial view is that it is unlikely gaming will be used in this tax relief. As I have said, we continue to discuss this with the sector and we are still gathering evidence.

However, if it will help the Committee, I will explain in a little detail why concerns as to gaming have arisen, why we believe such gaming is unlikely, in practice, and how I propose to deal with the matter between now and Report. What is being seen as the potential risk of gaming comes from the line we propose to draw in regulations as to when the relief should apply. New fibre installed after 1 April 2017 will receive the relief. However, some operators will choose instead to use existing fibre optic cable which was installed prior to 1 April 2017 but has not yet been activated. This is known as dark fibre. The objective of the measure in the Bill is to support investment in new fibre broadband infrastructure. Therefore, previous investment in existing fibre, including dark fibre, is not considered to be new fibre, has not been incentivised by this measure and will be outside the relief.

We have heard concerns that the proposed different treatment in the relief scheme of new fibre, which gets the relief, and dark fibre, which does not, could lead to some gaming in the system. It has been suggested that telecom operators may replace or duplicate existing dark fibre with new fibre merely to secure the rate relief. It has also been suggested that some operators may install new fibre in existing locations to gain a competitive advantage over existing operators in that location, merely because of the rate relief.

To understand this better we are investigating the costs and operational implications of installing new fibre into existing infrastructure, such as ducts. By comparing these costs to the potential saving on business rates from the new fibre relief we can identify where, in principle, the scope for gaming exists. To help us with that work we have held discussions with telecom companies regarding this matter and are now considering evidence provided by one operator, Gamma Telecom, which I mentioned at Second Reading. The consultation on the draft regulations runs until 21 November, and during this time we would like to hear views from other operators regarding the risk of gaming. This work is at an early stage and noble Lords will understand that some of the data we are using in this study is commercially confidential.

Our initial findings are that in the vast majority of cases—perhaps covering more than 99% of the telecom network—it will not be financially viable for operators to install new fibre merely to gain the relief. In those cases, the cost of purchasing the fibre and the labour costs associated with opening existing ducts—putting the fibre through those ducts and then connecting the fibre—exceeds the saving from business rates. In those situations it will be cheaper to use existing dark fibre, so gaming would not occur. Our focus, therefore, is on smaller networks where the business rates paid in respect of each kilometre of network are higher than for larger networks. The potential for making a saving in business rates is therefore also higher.

We are looking closely at the circumstances in which new fibre may be installed in existing smaller networks and exploring more of the costs associated with accessing existing ducts. These circumstances account for a very small fraction of the telecoms network—probably less than 1%. That said, I cannot see why 1% should be ignored and if there is evidence of the possibility of gaming, I would want to ensure that we act. But even if there are circumstances where, in principle, the rates saving exceeds the costs, it does not necessarily follow that, in practice, gaming is viable. For example, it may not be possible to add new fibre to ducts which are already in use, while switching from one fibre to another may cause interruption or disruption to the customer, which may be especially unacceptable for business customers and unattractive to the operator. But, as I have said, we agree with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we do not want a tax system that is open to gaming in the way that has been suggested. If from our work with the sector we conclude that gaming is likely, I assure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we would consider how to amend the draft regulations to prevent it.

The amendments we are considering would move the definition of new fibre into the Bill. This would in fact significantly limit our ability to tackle any gaming. The approach in the Bill of defining in regulations the meaning of new fibre gives us the scope to first identify the circumstances in which gaming might arise before we devise the solution. It allows us to ensure that any solution is practical and to respond quickly to any future circumstances where gaming might arise.

Moving on to the practical points put by the noble Lord and echoed by the noble Baroness about meeting the sector, as I have indicated, I intend to meet Gamma between now and Report, which will probably be towards the end of November. I will certainly keep the House—including the noble Lord and the noble Baroness—informed about how the discussions are going. I would be happy to include them in the thrust of what is happening, and expect to act on any concerns about gaming which indicate that this issue needs addressing. As I say, we are as keen as they are to tackle any potential gaming. I hope with that assurance and the guarantee that I will keep the noble Lord and the noble Baroness involved with what is happening, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful response. I am happy to withdraw my amendment at this stage. I am delighted that the Minister is meeting representative of the industry, particularly Gamma. That is very good.

I hope the Minister is right on all these things and that there is no issue with gaming at all. My only concern is that we should pass the legislation in a way that eliminates it. We are often told by the Government that parliamentary time is precious. It would be a shame to get the Bill through and then find, in a year’s time, that there was a problem after all and people are doing the things which we do not think they will now. I like the idea of putting something in regulations as a good way forward. They can be amended a bit more easily. I was at a meeting this morning on a completely different subject: a very good initiative that the Government had come forward with many years ago, when I first joined the House, but now there are some concerns about how it is operating. To get that initiative changed, we have to go back and get the law changed. That is not always easy. I thank the Minister for his response and look forward to further discussions. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their contributions on this amendment dealing with the possibility of a review. I welcome the opportunity to return to this proposed new clause, which, as the noble Lord rightly says, was discussed in Committee in the other place.

We have said throughout the passage of the Bill that we intend to work with the sector and the Valuation Office Agency to ensure the smooth implementation of this relief. I happily restate that. We have published draft regulations for consultation; they are up for consultation until 21 November. I hope that noble Lords will see from the debate that we have just had in relation to gaming that my department and the Government as a whole are looking very closely at the detailed operation of the scheme. We all share the objective of wishing to see this scheme implemented effectively and quickly from the outset. This in turn will lead to new fibre growth and improved broadband. That is the aim, which I know that noble Lords share.

However, I fear that the proposed new clause would not achieve that aim and, if included in the Bill, could threaten the success of this scheme. I note what the noble Lord says about business uncertainty elsewhere, but that hardly means that a bit more uncertainty is a good thing or something that we should not be concerned about. Sending a clear signal to investors in the telecoms sector is critical to the success of this measure, which is why we have moved quickly to bring forward the Bill and why we are consulting early on the draft regulations. Investors need to see a clear intention on the part of the Government to deliver relief from 1 April 2017 for five years up to 2022.

One suggestion is about the length of the relief being provided. Any suggestion that it might not last the full five years is not desirable. Those sorts of signals can make the difference to decision-makers in telecoms companies in deciding whether to proceed with an investment. Businesses thrive on certainty. Decisions in telecoms companies are being made now on the basis of the promise made by the Chancellor that new fibre will have relief until 2022.

I understand the objective of the amendment, but it would create uncertainty in the sector and damage the prospects for success of the measure. By providing for, in effect, a review of the rate relief after only one year, we will sow the seeds of doubt in the sector. The sector may fear that the Government might cancel or otherwise negate the relief after a year—especially when, as the amendment clearly states, the review should consider the duration of the relief. We could expect telecoms companies to react in only one way to the prospect of such a review: they will be less likely to invest, which would damage the rollout of broadband. Therefore, I am afraid that the Government cannot accept the amendment.

We will, of course, continue to monitor the effective operation of the scheme to ensure that it is indeed providing relief on new fibre. We will work with the sector and the Valuation Office Agency to do that. The powers in the Act will allow us to adjust the scheme where necessary such as to reflect changing and new technologies. Any suggestion that the relief might last less than five years is something that we cannot subscribe to.

The amendment would also require the Government to assess the impact of the relief on local government. In fact, that is information which we already plan to collect and publish. I can give that undertaking. Each year, the department publishes non-domestic rating returns containing the information about the business rates income and relief in each local authority area, which this seems to ask for. I can ensure access to that; we can provide the link so that that information is readily available. Those returns are based on information provided to us by local government, and they can be found in full on our website. As I say, I am very happy to provide guidance on how that can be accessed. Those returns will in future include information about the level of new fibre relief. We expect the first returns to include this information to be the outturns for 2017-18, published in autumn next year. I am happy to provide that information and, indeed, to meet the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, with officials, to explain how a lot of the information that has been requested is already available.

Throughout the passage of the Bill through this House and the other place, we have been clear that we would compensate local government for the cost of its share of the relief, and I give that assurance again today. In view of these assurances, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment, with the undertaking that I am happy to meet him and the noble Baroness to go through this, perhaps to explain how at least some of this information is available at the moment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the Minister for his helpful response. I am happy to withdraw my amendment. I think that brings us to the end.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th November 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the Report be now received.

Clause 1: Relief from local non-domestic rates: occupied hereditaments

Amendment 1

Moved by

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, first, I draw the attention of the House to my registered interests: namely, as a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

As we have heard, the Bill is not controversial. It seeks to help with the boosting of the switchover to fibre from our old copper broadband network. This is important as we need to increase the take-up of fibre at a faster pace, and it is recognised that an exemption from business rates could prove an incentive to speed up the process and get more of our outdated network on to a fibre network in a shorter period of time.

Amendment 4 in my name adds a new clause which puts into the Bill the time from which the relief from business rates will operate; namely, five years from 1 April 2017. I considered the issues at Second Reading and in Committee and my amendment seeks to give an additional power to the Secretary of State in England and to Welsh Ministers in Wales: that is, the ability to seek approval to extend the period for which the business rate relief is available to those companies that are installing new fibre beyond the initial period of five years.

The extension would have to be approved by both Houses of Parliament using the affirmative procedure. There will be parliamentary oversight of the process as it enables the Government to have the power to extend the scheme without the need for primary legislation. I think it is proportionate in the circumstances. It is a simple measure and will be an effective way of continuing the scheme if it has been deemed successful in helping roll out the network faster. Of course, if it has not been successful, the scheme will be ended and the option will not be taken up. I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for moving this amendment. As noble Lords will know, the matter of whether the five years of the rate relief scheme should appear in the Bill was also raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.

As currently drafted, the Bill would allow the relief to apply indefinitely. The draft regulations that we published for consultation would provide that the relief is limited to five years from 1 April 2017—so the five-year period of the scheme appears in secondary legislation rather than in the Bill. We have taken this approach to retain the ability to repeat the scheme for later years without the need to return for more primary legislation. This will allow us to consider the success of the scheme in a timely manner as 2022 approaches.

Nevertheless, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has made a very strong argument for why the five years should appear in the Bill. We have been clear that the purpose of the Bill is to implement the Chancellor’s commitment to offer five years of relief, and we now accept that such a fundamental aspect of the policy should appear in the Bill. But I am grateful that the noble Lord also recognises the value of retaining the ability to extend or repeat the relief scheme without another Bill. Therefore, we also agree that we should take a power to change the period of the relief and that this power should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, as the noble Lord set out.

As I have discussed with the noble Lord—and I appreciate the opportunity to do so—we intend to move our own amendment at Third Reading, achieving the noble Lord’s aim but ironing out one or two drafting defects just to ensure that we can make these changes. We will table the amendment tomorrow. Once more I thank the noble Lord for his constructive and helpful approach. I hope that, with these assurances, he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, very much. As he said, we had a very useful meeting a few days ago. I am very pleased that the Government have accepted the main thrust of what I am suggesting to the House. I am happy to withdraw the amendment at this stage and look forward to seeing the Minister’s amendment when he tables it tomorrow.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 14, after “energy,” insert—
“(aa) the day concerned falls before 1 April 2022,”

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment will place in the Bill the five-year duration for the rate relief scheme for new fibre. The scheme will apply retrospectively from 1 April 2017 to 31 March 2022. The need to have the five years on the face of the Bill was discussed at Report. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for raising this matter and agreeing to withdraw his amendment at that stage so that we could bring forward these changes.

The amendments will also allow for the period of the rate relief scheme to be extended by regulation using the affirmative resolution procedure. This will ensure that, if the Chancellor wants to repeat or extend the rate relief scheme, that can happen quickly without the need for another Bill but still with the approval of Parliament. I trust that noble Lords will agree that the amendment meets the commitment I gave on Report. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth. I draw the House’s attention to my interests as a local councillor in Lewisham and vice-president of the Local Government Association. As he said, we had a very fruitful meeting after I tabled my amendment at Report. I was very happy to withdraw that, and I am very pleased with what the Minister has brought back today. As he says, it has enabled the Government to put the dates in the Bill. If they want at some future point to extend the scheme, they can, without the need for primary legislation. It is a very sensible move.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my register of interests as a councillor in Kirklees and as another vice-president of the Local Government Association. As we discussed on Report, we agree with and support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. We thank the Minister for his very helpful meetings on the Bill. I have certainly explored a number of issues, although I have not got very far, and I do not intend to let them go. There is a growing need to think about the accessibility and affordability of broadband and mobile networks for people less well off than the majority, when they are going to rely on them for access to public services and other important aspects of their lives. That issue will not go away, and I hope Ministers will take that point away and think about it.

As for the amendments, we will obviously support them.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I shall respond to the typically generous comments from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, regarding the Bill in general. I also want to put on record a couple of other issues. First, I undertook that we would look at gaming, and after discussing the issue with Ofcom and Gamma Telecom—I have shared this with the opposition parties—they have concluded that there is no risk of gaming in relation to fibre, but we shall keep a watching brief on that issue. I also take note of what the noble Baroness said about rural issues and deprived and isolated areas that are difficult to get to. Again, we would want to take account of and pay special attention to that.

At Second Reading we benefited from hearing about the concerns about business rates of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and my noble friend Lady Harding. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for their constructive approach to the Bill. I am also grateful to my noble friend and co-pilot Lord Ashton for the support and expert knowledge he has provided throughout the Bill’s passage. I also extend thanks to the Bill team: Jonathan Denning, Nick Cooper, Pete McDougall, Stewart Kemsley, Thomas Adams and the ever-smiling Homaira Abdullah.

This Bill will help to close the digital divide and to get higher-quality, more reliable connectivity to households and businesses across the country, benefiting every sector of the economy. I beg to move.

Amendment 1 agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out “that day” and insert “the day concerned”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

5: Clause 2, page 3, line 6, after “energy,” insert—
“(aa) the chargeable day falls before 1 April 2022,”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

9: Clause 3, page 3, line 38, after “list,” insert—
“(ba) the chargeable day falls before 1 April 2022,”

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

13: The Schedule, page 6, line 25, at end insert—
“6A_ In section 143 (orders and regulations)—(a) in subsection (3), for “(3A)” substitute “(3ZA)”;(b) after subsection (3) insert—“(3ZA) The power to make regulations under section 43(4FA), 45(4EA) or 54ZA(4A) is exercisable by statutory instrument, and a statutory instrument containing any such regulations (whether alone or with other provision) may not be made—(a) in the case of regulations relating to England, unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament;(b) in the case of regulations relating to Wales, unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by resolution of the National Assembly for Wales.””

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, briefly, I want again to thank the noble Lord for handling this Bill in his usual courteous manner. It has broad support across the House and I have been very happy to work with the noble Lord and his colleagues on it. I also thank his Bill team—all the names that he mentioned. I have met a number of his officials and they have been helpful and courteous at all times.