Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Boswell of Aynho Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

As an amendment to the Motion that this House do not insist on its Amendment 73, at end insert “but do propose Amendment 73BA as an amendment in lieu”

73BA: Insert the following new Clause—
“Fees
In section 6 of the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 (fees), in subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (d), at the end there is inserted “(including provision for the apportionment of fees and the matters to be taken into account in determining an apportionment)”;
(b) in paragraph (g), “waiver” is repealed;
(c) after paragraph (g) there is inserted—
“(h) about waiver of fees (including the matters to be taken into account in determining a waiver).””

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, in moving this amendment in lieu, I am all too painfully conscious of the unavoidable absence of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I am equally aware that on the occasion when he moved his amendment, which was dramatically endorsed by this House with an eloquent and decisive majority, I myself was unable to attend, not as a matter of self-absenting but because I was then engaged in Strasbourg on parliamentary duties with the Council of Europe. I seek to rectify that omission not only by studying the past amendment but by returning to the case which was so eloquently put by my noble and learned friend on an amendment to which, for the record, I had been a co-signatory. We have subsequently discussed the course of events. I also say for the avoidance of doubt that I have no difficulty at all with the alternative amendment in lieu, which is being put forward by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.

This is one of the most difficult areas of social policy. Successive Secretaries of State, from my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree—whom I have known for many years and with whom I have discussed this matter in extenso—onwards, regardless of their politics, have been united in their inability to find a satisfactory answer to situations where parental relations have broken down or where any suggestion of maintenance is aggravating that breakdown. We are all trying to find an approach which overcomes this. I say to the higher students of these matters that this is now my third version of an amendment in an effort to get some thoughts right. We want to meet the case of substance: how to help parents with care and their children. At the same time, we do not want to impose significant strain on the public finances or, taking up the point that the Minister made in explaining the case tonight, to set any perverse incentive towards intransigence on the part of either parent concerned. I know that Ministers are as anxious to avoid that as we all are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that. In that spirit, I turn finally to my noble friend Lord Boswell’s Amendment 73BA. In doing so, I thank him for his contribution to today’s debate, which, as one would expect, was thoughtful and wise, as many other contributions have been, even those I have not necessarily agreed with.

We absolutely acknowledge the concerns around vulnerable groups, particularly parents with care. Although we will not further amend our current proposals, we want to ensure that, going forward, especially at the time of the review, we have the powers to evolve charges in line with evaluation. As I have stated, we especially want to consider the behavioural responses of parents and the outcomes they reach as part of our review. If in the light of evaluation and review we need to change our approach, I believe that Amendment 73BA clarifies that we would have the ability to do so under the 2008 Act. Therefore, I welcome Amendment 73BA and the Government wish to accept it.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, in view of the tenor of this debate, and specifically what has just been said, I can be very brief and merely express my thanks. Our thanks go first to all those who have participated in this debate and to the non-government organisations and other interested parties that have briefed us and encouraged us on our way. We are grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has set out a response to my noble friend Lord Newton in relation to the consultation exercise and, more specifically, because he has gone even further than his earlier “sweetness and light” and has now actually accepted an amendment from the Back Benches. I am very grateful to him for accepting my amendment. It is not something I do very often, or at least I do not succeed in getting an amendment accepted, although I may try.

There is a real concern about getting this matter right and not disadvantaging vulnerable parents or children. We need to have a fairly intense dialogue about that and a much clearer understanding of the rationale of what is being done. We want to make sure that we do not do the wrong thing and then regret it later because that has been—with respect to all those in this Chamber who have been involved—something of the history of the CSA and CMEC to date. We have a chance to build on that. We start in a very good spirit. We have even had the indulgence of the usual channels and the Scottish interests in enabling us to prolong not just our consideration of this amendment but our detailed consideration of all these Lords amendments.

In conclusion, I wish to say two things. First, I approached this issue by putting a pair of gloves in my pocket which I was prepared to leave on the Bench as a gesture of dissatisfaction if we had to fight our way through to the regulations. I have now metaphorically repocketed them because I think that we can now have a constructive discussion which will lead to a satisfactory outcome. Secondly, and finally, I express my thanks to my colleague in this endeavour—the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. I dedicate this minor success to our noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern in his absence. He took the House with him and got something done, for which we are very grateful. In that spirit and to enable a positive response, I commend the amendment.

Motion H1A, as an amendment to Motion H, agreed.