Lord Beecham
Main Page: Lord Beecham (Labour - Life peer)
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 90A in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Harris, and to the amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Hayter. I will not reiterate anything in relation to Amendment 90A that I have already referred to in the previous amendments to which I spoke about the position of local authorities, the GLA and the NHS, except to say this. Why are the Government seeking powers to explicitly control one area of local authority expenditure—and by definition a very small percentage, whatever view one takes of it—out of all the functions of local government? What is it that has so concerned the Government that they are taking this quite exceptional course? I cannot see any evidence of such a serious issue. When one thinks of other areas of public policy where things occasionally go wrong, in local government or, indeed, in central government or the health service, where is the equivalent penal exercise that this provision seeks to impose?
Having said that, I revert to the provisions of Clause 13 itself, and I entirely endorse what my noble friend said about the clause. It strikes me as extraordinary that the Government should seek to intervene in this way. The Explanatory Notes, for example, refer to the fact that:
“The reserve powers may be exercised so as to limit the paid time off taken by … trade union representatives … to a percentage of the representatives’ working time. For example, if a public sector employer employs a number of trade union representatives who spend 100% of their working time on facility time, the cap may limit the time spent by such trade union representatives to 50% of the working time”.
What criteria would the Government apply in those circumstances? Would it be related to the number of employees involved and the number of trade union representatives? Suppose there is only one trade union representative in a particular place? I referred to the fact that Newcastle schools employed 1.6 people, but it may be one full-time representative. Will the Government say in that situation that only 50% would be permitted for that one person? Or will they say that 50% of the total can be found, but that means that no individual can spend 100% of his time? Two people could spend 50% of their time, or will that not be permitted?
What are the Government so concerned about in this particular area of public policy that they feel they have to take the power to prescribe in such detail as opposed to almost anything else either in the employment field of local government or the policy field? An extraordinary amount of attention is being paid to what, while it is certainly not an unimportant service, is one that still involves few people and a very small amount of money. That is what feeds the suspicion of some of us that the Government are bent on doing more than just ensuring an economical approach to the matter; there is a different agenda here to which Members of the Committee have referred many times today.
I hope the noble Baroness can give us a better clarification of the objectives here and a better reason for interfering in the rights of bodies which, I repeat, are accountable anyway. They are accountable to their electorates and are overseen by audit committees, and very often the local media will be keen to investigate any alleged difficulties. Why is it that Whitehall assumes that it should be prescriptive about the activities of hundreds of local authorities which have as legitimate an electoral mandate, if not more, than those that seek to oppose these restrictions?
Lord Kerslake
My Lords, I shall speak in support of Amendment 90A. If Clause 12 was about transparency, for which I have a great deal of sympathy, Clause 13 is essentially about compulsion—top-down “Whitehall knows best” micro-management. That is what it adds up to. If transparency has the desired effect, which the Government argue it will have, it is difficult to conceive of why there is a need for Clause 13. If this was seen as such an unacceptable expenditure in Sheffield, Doncaster or Brighton, the electorates would be able to make their decisions accordingly.
Let us take first the example we have just heard about from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. There are arguments in favour of full-time trade union officials and arguments in favour of part-time ones. I have worked in different organisations with different models. What I would never presume to know is which one is right for any particular organisation, and I cannot conceive of circumstances in which the Government would know the right model. The second point I would like to make is that the requirements in relation to facility time would not vary just between organisation and organisation; they will vary in time as well. If a local authority is going through a major restructuring, it is perfectly reasonable—I have done this—to agree to extra time for trade unions in order to enable them to play their part fully in that change. If a cap is introduced, flexibility in the process is taken away.
It is not clear whether Clause 13 will apply to individual public bodies, individual local authorities or groups of local authorities. It seems to allow for all possibilities, so it would be interesting to hear from the Minister which she thinks it would be. But if we are talking about groups of local authorities, you will almost certainly get it wrong in either direction. If the cap is set high then people will not unreasonably take it as being the marker that the Government think is appropriate. If the cap is set too low, you will undermine the effectiveness of negotiations and the proper running of affairs in a local authority. All of this adds up in my mind to an example of centrist government at its very worst and I think that it should be dropped from the Bill. At the very least, local authorities should be given the flexibility to make this decision for themselves. If we believe that they are capable of leading economic development, running social care and being responsible for developing new housing supply, we must surely think that they are capable of deciding what the right level of trade union facilities is for them.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, as I said in the debate on Clause 12, I have my concerns about Clause 13. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and, once again, to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for making part of the case that I want to make, which is that there are all sorts of reasons why it would be mad to use this power.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the point very well. We have made it clear in Clause 12 that what we really believe in is transparency. We are not frightened of transparency, and we are not frightened of standing up for what we believe is right in this respect and what we believe is good for union relations. In that circumstance, it would be a defeat for transparency if we found that the powers in Clause 13 needed to be used. But then I think: could I conceive that it could never happen? Those of us who have been around in some of these industrial and other areas know that a relationship that has been established over a long time—perhaps between a chairman and a local trade union—can incite very real criticism when it is in the public domain but people feel incapable of moving on it. It may be in the interests of that organisation, whichever of the publicly funded bodies it may be, for someone to resolve the issue.
What nobody has mentioned is that it is not—if I may say so, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake—about whether Whitehall knows best. It will be, in the end, about whether Parliament knows best. The most important part of this clause is that for a Minister to try to impose this power, he must carry an affirmative order in each House. Just consider yourself as a Minister, deciding whether you will act in some area that will excite all the criticisms so well made from the opposition Benches, and consider why it would be so unwise.
As anyone who has had to deal with the business managers will know—and I am standing not very far away from the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms—the business managers say, “We have more than enough business anyway in both Houses and why on earth do you want to bring this order?”. It is not just the Opposition who oppose half the business that the Government or individual Ministers want to bring forward; it is very often the business managers on your own side who say, “We are far too busy. This can’t be the most important thing. Can’t it be sorted out in any other way?”.
I agree with everything that has been said. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about local government. If you get transparency on this issue in local government, which already exists, as we know, it is not going to be applied against an individual local authority. I cannot see that ever being applied. But there could be another public body that becomes a public embarrassment, where it is known publicly, as we do know, that in certain areas significant public money can be wasted, and then people will turn to the Government and to Parliament and say, “What are you going to do about this? Are you powerless to prevent this situation continuing?”.
In those circumstances, I can see a case for Clause 13 but, if I may say so—not terribly helpfully to my noble friend the Minister—I find it completely unreadable. That was always one of the problems with the parliamentary draftsmen. I understand what the point is but somebody ought to have a jolly good look and see whether we can deal with one or two of the points that have been picked out by the Opposition, absolutely rightly—the odd little details where some draftsman has got carried away with what the individual details are. That needs to be looked at. That is a singularly unhelpful comment and will put Report stage back, I expect. There is a case for Clause 13 but, as I say, the chances of it actually being used, for all the reasons that have been given, are pretty minuscule. However, I would not rule out the need for it and on that basis I would support it.
Lord Beecham
Can I take it that the noble Lord is in favour of the House retaining its right to vote on affirmative resolutions?