Police: Reduction in Numbers

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Condon

Thursday 26th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I certainly agree about the importance of having safer communities. That is why it is not a stock answer to point out that fewer crimes are happening than at any time since that survey came into being in 1981. It is not something to be complacent about. It is due to the tremendous efforts which the police are making. Nor are we simply saying that reductions in budgets are not a serious matter. We are saying that there needs to be those reductions. As the Police Federation recognised, there needed to be reductions to make sure that we balance the economy. We have reduced bureaucracy by 4.5 million hours, which is the equivalent of 2,100 police officers. Also, we have said that we do not want police officers in back offices but on the front line. We have increased the proportion of police officers who are now serving on the front line. The combination of those two things is why crime is falling.

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, even if economic necessity justifies the 17,000 reduction in the number of police officers and the 23,000 reduction in civilian support staff, nevertheless, the next Government should have as an aspiration the renewal of neighbourhood policing and reassuring uniform police patrol? Despite the best efforts of the Government, crime commissioners and chief constables, neighbour policing and reassuring uniform patrol are threatened and are in danger of being relegated to our history books—and they are the foundation of the relationship with the public.

[Lord Bates]

I totally agree with that, which is one of the reasons why, between March 2010 and March 2014, the number of neighbourhood police officers increased by 5,918. Total neighbourhood policing is up by 1,919, which reflects the change in the number of PCSOs. It is a vital part and there is no doubt that policing can take place effectively only when it is with community consent, working together with the police and law enforcement agencies to ensure that we reduce crime.

Water Cannon

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Condon

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord will be aware that we agree this could result in a very significant change in the nature of policing, which has a tradition of being by consent and with public support. When the report was submitted last March by the chief constable who is the national policing lead, the Home Secretary decided this needed to be looked at by the Centre for Applied Science and Technology—CAST—and SACMILL. Their report was received last week and the Home Secretary will issue a response, both on the science and on the ethics of whether this is something we want to see deployed on the streets of this country.

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, I have a registered interest in policing. Does the Minister agree that no compelling case has been made, now or in the past, for the use of water cannon in London and that that is why all former commissioners, me included, have resisted calls for their use? In those circumstances, is it not wise for the Home Secretary to take her time responding to this issue? If there is a change of policy, it would dramatically affect the mood and tone of how police respond to challenging demonstrations or street disorder.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that we should take our time, and that is what the Home Secretary is doing. That is why she commissioned the report and that is why she wrote to ask for further information. Of course, this came to the Home Secretary from the Chief Constables’ Council—from the operational side—last year and we are giving very serious consideration to it.

Police: Funding

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Condon

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks, which are of course reciprocated. On the budgets that we are talking about, it is important to say that we inherited a very difficult set of financial circumstances, and the police had to take their share of the pressure. The reality is that although absolute police budgets have fallen by 16% in cash terms, crime has fallen by 20%. That is welcome. Indeed, in Lincolnshire, where Neil Rhodes is, there has been a 20% reduction in overall crime levels against a 10% change in overall officer numbers. That gives some encouragement that it can be done.

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my registered interest in policing. Does the Minister accept that it will be prudent for the next Government, of whatever complexion, to consider further police reform, including potential amalgamations, if such reform is shown to provide better value for money, improve public confidence and, most importantly, safeguard neighbourhood policing, which seems to be under threat? Does he agree that the current Government’s support for police and crime commissioners should not get in the way of, or inhibit, further discussion of sensible reform?

[Lord Bates]

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s great expertise in this area. The current Commissioner of the Met, while warning about cuts, also said that cuts without reform would not work. I think that everyone is signed up to the fact that there needs to be reform. What that reform should be is where the debate lies. Our argument is that perhaps there is greater room for the reform of policing—for example, doing away with targets and making just one target of cutting crime, and being better co-ordinated in terms of procurement between forces. Those are arguments that can be had. I also recognise the importance of local policing, which the noble Lord referred to as well.

Calais: Illegal Immigrants

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Condon

Thursday 27th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord is absolutely right in the sense that that is exactly what the juxtaposed operation in Calais and Dunkirk is doing. We have Border Force people on the ground augmenting the work done by the port-side authorities. In addition, we have sniffer dogs on the port side, as well as the fencing which we are introducing. That co-operation is there; we should like it to be extended.

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand and perhaps share the concern felt by many interested observers who have followed the situation for many years and believe that it is capable of much better resolution? If he shares that concern, what does he think is the major impediment preventing a lesser threat to drivers and greater safety for these tragic migrants?

[Lord Bates]

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s great experience in this area. From my preparation for this Question, I think that if the simple task of securing the vehicle—ensuring that it is covered and padlocked—happened, the problem would be reduced dramatically. Basic security measures and education of drivers are critical, as is maintaining the maximum £2,000 civil penalty fine if they fail to do that and migrants come into this country.