Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I will speak about the NCA and in particular those aspects of it that relate to policing arrangements in Northern Ireland and to relations with the Republic of Ireland. Having glanced down the list of speakers, I do not think that these areas will be covered by other noble Lords. I am particularly interested in this matter as a Northern Ireland Member of your Lordships’ House, and also as the Liberal Democrat co-chair on Northern Ireland policy.

I will start with some general issues. When SOCA was established and was due to absorb the role of the Assets Recovery Agency, there was considerable concern in Northern Ireland about the loss of the public effect that the ARA had had in not only taking assets away from criminals but making it very clear to the public that this was happening, and sending a public shiver down the backs of paramilitaries. Apart from the legal effect, it had a serious public effect on people in Northern Ireland from all sides of the community. The Independent Monitoring Commission, of which I was a member, expressed anxiety that after moving to SOCA that might not be so evident. There were also concerns about whether SOCA would retain a footprint and a strategy informed by the needs of Northern Ireland.

It is my perception that the concerns were well grounded and that in public terms, whatever SOCA has done by way of assets recovery, it has not had the same impact within the community. As we move to the National Crime Agency, my concern is that it may be difficult for a body that sets its priorities here in the south-east of England to have a public impact on some of these important issues in Northern Ireland. I wonder whether the priorities will remain the same. It was very clear to my colleagues and me that smuggling across the border and fuel laundering, for example, were massive in Northern Ireland but small beer for HMRC, so they were not prioritised. The number of officers put to task was minimal. As we move to a new agency, my concern is that the problems connected with the establishment of SOCA may be repeated.

When Revenue and Customs were brought together, the new HMRC incorporated a lot of Customs powers that had not been available to the Inland Revenue. There was not a great deal of debate about that and I am not sure that all those powers should have been transferred to the new HMRC. I seek the following reassurance from my noble friend the Minister. When the new agency absorbs the responsibilities of other bodies such as the National Policing Improvement Agency, which does not have all the powers that SOCA had, will there be any differentiation or will we see simply a centralising and increasing of power by a centralised and centralising agency?

On the new structures that will be established, I wonder how well they have been explored. There is—at least until Mr Salmond has his way—only one land border for this country, which is with the Republic of Ireland. I see that one of the four commands set down is border policing. This is something of which we in Northern Ireland have been very conscious. The noble Lord, Lord Reid, who is in his place, was very aware of that in his time. I am eager to know whether the Home Secretary has had discussions with the Minister of Justice in the Republic of Ireland, because I cannot see how it will be possible to continue with the excellent relationship that we have with An Garda Siochana and the Ministry of Justice if we have not had direct discussions with our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland in advance of bringing forward a measure to Parliament. Has this been discussed at the British- Irish Council, for example? It is the kind of thing that that body was put in place to discuss.

On the smuggling of drugs, people and fuel, the land border is so permeable that it would be impossible to deal with organised crime without addressing this—and without addressing it in co-operation with our colleagues on the other side of the border. Here I come to another problem. The Bill proposes that it will be possible for the agency to take over counterterrorism functions; there is an order-making power. I find it difficult to see how an agency of this kind could deal with organised crime in a place such as Northern Ireland if it did not incorporate counterterrorism functions. While it is not the case that all organised crime is from paramilitaries—the truth is absolutely the contrary—nevertheless there is sufficient paramilitary involvement to require an understanding of counterterrorism functions; I cannot see how it will be dealt with without the inclusion of those functions. In my work over a long period of time I have been very struck by the fact that An Garda Siochana incorporates the functions of intelligence, organised crime and community policing in one organisation. I am aware that it is good to bring these things together but I am not absolutely convinced that the Bill does that.

Where I have the greatest difficulty is on the question of Northern Ireland itself and its policing arrangements. Policing was the most exquisitely sensitive issue in all the negotiations, far more so than many of the political institutions and structures that many people thought were the key issue. And yet it seems to me that we may have a real dilemma in getting this Bill through because this will require a legislative consent Motion in the Northern Ireland Assembly, maybe even in more than one department. I think for the Department of Social Development there are some issues where an LCM may be required but certainly in terms of the Department of Justice it will be required. I know that my right honourable friend and Secretary of State in another place, Owen Patterson, and the Home Secretary have engaged with David Ford, the Minister of Justice in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and that has been a fruitful engagement.

I know there were proposals that the director-general of the NCA would have the powers of a constable in Northern Ireland. That would effectively produce—certainly in the perception of people in Northern Ireland—a second police force in Northern Ireland with completely different governance arrangements. I fancy it might be difficult to get a cross-community agreement for an LCM in the Northern Ireland Assembly on that and so the Home Secretary has very sensibly pulled that back. The director-general in the original Bill could ask the Department of Justice to direct the chief constable. Fortunately, there has been an understanding that the Policing Board needs to be involved in this kind of thing and the chief constable needs to have these matters discussed rather than have directions made and so there has been a removal of some of the provisions and an instruction that any changes would require the consent or approval of PSNI and of the chief constable, which is very reasonable. But I fear that if any consultation between the director of the NCA is only with the chief constable and not with the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice, you put the police chief constable in a very political position where he or she might be asked to make what would inevitably in Northern Ireland be seen as a highly political decision to allow the director of the NCA to extend the powers. It seems to me we have done such a lot to try to take the issue of the politicising of the police out of the situation that it would be very ill advised to move in that direction. Therefore, although there has been some improvement in the Bill, I suspect that it will be necessary to ensure that not just the chief constable but also the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice are consulted.

As I say, there are inclusions of a requirement to consult the Policing Board and that is excellent but I am wondering how the Bill has got to this point with what I perceive to be real vulnerabilities on the Northern Ireland front. Can my noble friend let us know whether the Executive have yet discussed the question of a legislative consent Motion not being able to be brought forward successfully and given any indication? My understanding is that the Justice Committee has not been able to discuss it because the Bill has only become public very recently. I fear that it might be very difficult to get a legislative consent Motion through, in which case it could well be that Northern Ireland would have to be excluded from the Bill, and that is not without political implications either for those on the Unionist side of the House in Northern Ireland. So I look forward to what my noble friend has to say in giving guidance on this. There have already been very helpful discussions with the Minister of Justice and substantial movements on the part of the Home Secretary but I rather suspect there may have to be more discussions, not just with the Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland, and perhaps more constructive engagement from the Home Secretary and more movement on this issue.