Great Western Main Line: Electrification

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We had several meetings away from this Chamber about the costs of HS2. As the noble Lord is fully aware, the experts who are working on the modelling and pricing of HS2 are meeting notable experts whom he himself put forward, and it will be interesting to await the outcome of that meeting.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, do the difficulties with electrification not show the benefits of building a new line such as HS2?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I could not agree more with my noble friend.

Railways: Fares

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord always brings a particular viewpoint to our debates here and he has done so again. It is a matter for the Scottish National Party to determine its ideology. However, if it is being won over by the positive agenda of the Conservative Government then I welcome that.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is essential to have an RPI formula in order that the train operating companies do not have to try to forecast where inflation might be in several years’ time?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend is right to raise this issue. The basis we currently use, as I have been clear, is RPI. It is important to provide certainty to the market not just for people using the services but, as he points out, for rail companies as well. As I have said, once we see the result of the consultation we will look at this.

Autonomous Road Vehicles

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, of course we welcome the cutting-edge nature of transport innovation in the rail sector. In particular my noble friend talked about the new systems and operations at Heathrow and the pods being used there. There are also other parts of the rail network such as the DLR and the new rolling stock from Siemens that will be coming on line on Thameslink. There will be a use of technology and autonomous vehicles in what I believe will be controlled environments. He mentioned further innovations on the wider network. We need to see how technology can be adapted on existing systems while recognising that the interface with the people who work in the rail sector is equally important, and look at how their skills can be adapted in line with the technologies we are now seeing across the system.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is there any function of a train driver that cannot theoretically be safely automated?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I have already said, the DfT is not looking at any particular study. Train drivers across the network, across the country and beyond play a very important role. We are seeing the outlay and the new driver-only operated trains coming on board. As I have already said, we need to embrace technology and look at how the employee interface works with it. We are seeing some very good examples across the country.

Southern Rail

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, did I hear the Minister correctly? Did he say that the vast majority of drivers have already signed up to the new contract to operate the doors?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I was referring to the conductors. There are no job losses. The conductors have now signed new contracts to become train supervisors. Yes, my noble friend heard correctly: all but one have signed up, and that one is leaving. As far as the drivers are concerned, the dispute with the drivers’ union is based on the safety of driver-only-operated trains, and the independent regulator has said that in the context of the Southern franchise they are safe to run. Some 50% of trains, including those on London Underground, are driver-only-operated trains. Trains of a driver-only-operated nature run in Canada and elsewhere in Europe. We are not alone in this. The basis of the dispute is therefore undermined; there is no basis to it. The unions need to get their people back to work and help to resolve this. The noble Lord opposite raised long-standing issues. The Government are also addressing those. As he may have followed in the press recently, there is also going to be £300 million focused on the Southern rail franchise to address the long-standing problems on the track and the issues around Network Rail.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - part two): House of Lords
Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, your Lordships set up the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to look at precisely this issue. These are transitional and consequential provisions and it is not clear to me why there should be any matter that needs to be looked at in Grand Committee. I am also not clear whether the committee recommended that we should resort to the affirmative procedure. It would be very helpful if the noble Lord, in responding to my noble friend’s advice on this matter, could say whether the committee advised the affirmative procedure. Furthermore, if the party opposite won the next general election so that the noble Lord was the Minister and I was the opposition Front Bench spokesman for transport and I thought that a similar amendment was appropriate on a piece of transport legislation, would he accept my amendment to go to the affirmative procedure?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, Clauses 22 and 23 give the Secretary of State the power to make, by way of regulations, consequential, transitional, transitory and saving provisions. Clause 22 provides that the power conferred by that section includes the power to amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify both primary and secondary legislation. The clause also specifies that regulations must be made by way of statutory instrument and any regulations that amend or repeal primary legislation must follow the affirmative procedure. Any other regulations under this clause which, for example, amend secondary legislation are subject to the negative procedure.

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee referred to Clause 22 in its report about this Bill, but only in the context of the power to “otherwise modify” primary legislation by way of making regulations that are subject to the negative procedure. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Andrew Jones, explained in his letter of 1 July to the chair of the DPRRC, the Government’s starting point is that regulations which make textual changes to Acts should be subject to affirmative procedure. However, when non-textual modifications would be made by the regulations, the Government continue to believe that the negative procedure is appropriate. The DPRRC did not raise any issues with negative procedure being used for regulations that make consequential changes to secondary legislation, or indeed for regulations made under Clause 23.

Amendments 114A and 114B, which would require all regulations under Clauses 22 and 23 to follow the affirmative process, would introduce a disproportionately burdensome mechanism for changes of the sort which would be made by the regulations to be scrutinised. The Government take the view that it would not be an appropriate use of parliamentary time to require all regulations that make consequential, transitional, transitory or saving provisions to follow the affirmative procedure.

I shall give a quick example. Clause 23 provides that regulations may, in particular, make transitional provision about ticketing schemes under Section 135 of the Transport Act 2000 which exist before the Bill comes into force. Clause 7 contains provisions that introduce advanced ticketing schemes in England. Through our discussions in Committee and Report, these provisions received rigorous parliamentary scrutiny. Any provisions made under Clause 23 would only make provision about how existing ticketing schemes in England are dealt with when the new advanced ticketing schemes provisions come into force. To resolve this issue, regulations may provide that existing schemes can be treated as advanced ticketing schemes. The intention of Amendment 114B is that such regulations would be subject to affirmative procedure. As I said already, I believe that this would be disproportionate. The Government take the view that regulations dealing with such provisions are eminently suitable to the negative procedure. The Government will continue to argue that the current level of parliamentary scrutiny set out in Clauses 22 and 23 is appropriate. I hope that with that explanation the noble Lord feels minded to withdraw his amendment.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 12th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, all noble Lords understand the importance of emissions controls, but when the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, decides what she is going to do with her amendment could she tell the House what she thinks is more important—fuel efficiency, related to carbon emissions, or pollutant emissions such as PM10 or PM5 or nitrous oxides? Does the Office for Low Emission Vehicles determine which is the priority, fuel efficiency or pollutant emissions, or do the Government tell the office which is the priority?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I once again thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am a tad disappointed in the response that I am hearing. The Government have taken a balanced view in line with their intent, reflected across the Chamber, to tackle the issue of emissions. I fear that what the Opposition propose or support in the amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will in certain areas where there is no issue put a prescriptive obligation on local authorities. The other question, which we have discussed outside the Chamber with both noble Baronesses, is that of the smaller operators, which will be more challenged by the setting of such particular prescriptive limits. When we look at legislation we must look at its application in a national context—notwithstanding the fact that some operators provide essential services, which will be disadvantaged by this proposal—and in other areas where these prescriptive obligations are set, where there is not the same issue prevailing.

I fully accept—as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, mentioned—that there are now, in terms of manufacturing of course, vehicles being produced. May I suggest, perhaps as I have previously on this Bill, a small olive branch? I think that we are on the same page here; we all want to tackle this important issue. We can look to see how, within the guidance that will accompany the Bill, the issue raised by noble Lords about OLEV can be reflected.

I feel, and I emphasise again, that the amendments presented by the Government are not just about devolution. They are also about, as I said in my opening comments, economic viability and ensuring that we get the level of take-up on some of the issues. I fear that other amendments, as they currently stand, would disadvantage passengers and perhaps even end up stopping partnership and franchising schemes happening in certain areas. I think that the Government’s amendments strike the right balance but, as I said, in the spirit in which this Bill has been discussed, we can certainly ensure that the issue of OLEV is better reflected and specified in the guidance.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have always had concerns about the fuel efficiency argument that the noble Baroness so skilfully articulated. I do not oppose her vision but do not quite understand why the proposed new grant to local authorities would not get swallowed up in their general budget and not result in any additional services. If the noble Baroness would touch on that point, it would be helpful.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as a Minister, one gets used to looking in front of one and not behind. I apologise to my noble friend for not realising that he wished to speak and for attempting to speak before he did. I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution. Her proposed new clause seeks to devolve the bus service operators grant, or BSOG as it is known, to local authorities, and would require authorities to consider joint funding of subsidised local bus services in partnership with specialist and community operators.

I know that the issue of funding for bus services was raised by many noble Lords during earlier debates on the Bill, and I agree that it is a key issue that we need to tackle. BSOG is a payment made to bus operators by my department to help support local bus services outside London. Since 2013-14, some £40 million a year of BSOG has been devolved to local authorities outside London, rather than paid to the bus operators. This money is for the services that local authorities subsidise themselves through the tendering system. However, the remaining BSOG funding is paid to bus operators for commercial rather than tendered services, reflecting the fact that in the current model of bus-service delivery bus operators are responsible for providing our local bus services and deciding which services to run.

I agree that where an authority takes on the financial risk associated with providing bus services through establishing a system of franchising they should have access to the BSOG funding that would have been paid to bus companies in the area. So BSOG funding will be devolved to local authorities where franchising is established. However, it is important to remember that where franchising is not established the deregulated market remains, with bus operators responsible for devising and running local bus services.

For many bus operators, BSOG can be the difference that ensures a local bus service is viable, and this can be especially true in rural areas—a concern expressed by several noble Lords. Such commercial services, which operate with no contractual relationship with local authorities, often run across local government boundaries. So decisions taken by one local authority, if BSOG funding was devolved to it, could very easily have a significant adverse impact on services in another area. Devolving BSOG to all authorities as a matter of course could therefore have significant implications. I should explain that we are already reviewing the BSOG system with the aim of ensuring that funding is targeted where it is most needed. I envisage that we will launch a consultation later this year on how the system could be reformed.

The noble Baroness made a couple of points about BSOG being a poor incentive for fuel efficiency. A number of existing top-ups to BSOG incentivise particular improvements, including environmental improvements. I agree that a fuel-based system sends unhelpful signals. That is an issue we will be looking at in our review and the consultation to which I referred.

I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that we are thinking about the BSOG system with the aim of ensuring that we get the best out of the funding available. However, I would not want to pre-empt that exercise by setting out changes on the face of the Bill. However, I agree that resources can be used more effectively where services are planned together, and where specialist and community operators are involved. This is something we are exploring through our total transport pilots as we want to ensure we make the funding available go as far as possible.

I reassure the noble Baroness that we will continue to look further at the extent to which this policy can be pursued and championed, and whether it is something that can be considered further in the Bill. Given that reassurance and explanation, I hope that she is minded to withdraw her amendment.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

That is very helpful. I am very happy to get involved in discussions on an amendment that we are all happy with and can work with, and which delivers the aim expressed across the Committee today of making sure that passengers are properly involved. However, what I do not want to see at the end of those discussions is a note in guidance, because, importantly, that does not have the same strength as something in the Bill.

[Earl Attlee]

Will the Minister take great care to make sure that everyone who has an interest in the Bill is included in these discussions? Sometimes it is possible for people to fall out of the loop and not be fully involved.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I give my noble friend that assurance. I will go further and say that I never forget my noble friend when it comes to such discussions. He has made a very valid contribution throughout this debate and I am sure he will continue to do so in debates going forward. Any noble Lord has an open invitation to meetings, as I have said, as we look to strengthen the provisions of the Bill and the services it provides.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Monday 4th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend tabled an amendment and it is right that we have a discussion in Committee. I hope that through the provisions in the Bill that I have highlighted—for example, the requirement to give ample notice—his fears are allayed as regards compensating a business franchise that goes out of operation. The Bill contains proper provisions in relation to, for example, giving notice. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and I are on the same page on this.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if I have brought both Front Benches together, I have achieved something. Some noble Lords talked about disreputable operators. If, as a result of a franchising scheme, a disreputable operator goes out of business, no one would be happier than me.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, picked up on the fact that local authorities are currently putting services out for bid and that operators are either successful or unsuccessful. Noble Lords are right but the difference here is that an operator can be sure that, so long as he has a good commercial model and keeps his customers happy, he can stay in business. However, if he gets hit by franchising, he will be out of business through no fault of his own.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made an interesting comparison with the railway industry, but he will know that that is on a different scale and people in the railway industry know that that is the name of the game. They will bid for the franchise and amortise all the costs of their investment over the length of the franchise, whereas the operators that I am concerned about at the moment have no risk of being put out of business by franchising because that simply cannot be done. It is therefore a new situation that they could not have planned for.

No noble Lord has explained away my TTIP problem. Regarding facilities for operators, franchising may well provide efficiencies because perhaps fewer workshops and garages are needed. The problem is that someone ends up holding redundant facilities that they used to have a commercial use for. I am not convinced by the response of my noble friend but I will read Hansard carefully and, subject to the usual caveats, I will come back on this. Oh, the Minister wants to have another go at me.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I would never dream of having a go at my noble friend; I am merely thankful that he has given way. It was remiss of me not to mention the TTIP issue. I understand that investor-state dispute settlement does not prevent a current or future Government who act in accordance with due process changing their laws or policies. My noble friends Lord Attlee and Lord Young referred to this point and it is my understanding that this element is still being negotiated between the European Union and the US.

[Earl Attlee]

I thank my noble friend for that response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, subject to the usual caveats.

Airport Capacity

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, can the Minister now answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser? What has changed since the Government told the House that we would have a decision before Christmas? Or is it merely that the Cabinet as a whole lacks the moral courage to make the decision?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend has said something that I cannot agree with—and nor do I agree with it on principle. The Government have moved forward. We have agreed that airport expansion will take place in the south-east, and I am sure that he will acknowledge the importance of the environmental considerations. I said specifically that in the interim, on 26 November, we received a reasonable and full assessment from the Environmental Audit Committee and I quoted from its report. I commend the report to my noble friend, as he will see that we need to ensure that all the key environmental considerations are taken into account in making the final decision.

Asylum

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government adopt responsible measures and have taken a responsible attitude in addressing the issue of the migration crisis across Europe. On the noble Baroness’s assessment of the Dublin convention, she is correct: that does stand.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister remain convinced that we should keep out of the Schengen area?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Evidence suggests that that was a very sensible thing to do.

Airports Commission

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right. I agree with him that this has been a detailed report, which the previous Government, under the current Prime Minister, commissioned in 2012. The report has been received, and I am sure the noble Lord would agree with me that it is time now to give the detailed report considered opinion. It is quite right that there should be a sub-committee of the Cabinet to take this decision forward. I reiterate the point that the Prime Minister has made quite clear: a decision will be made by the end of the year.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that I spent the first two years of the last Parliament dodging this very issue? The reason was the helpful policy input from the Liberal Democrat party. Does the Minister recognise that the Government really will have to make a decision on this matter this year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I would never accuse my noble friend of dodging anything. If he did so that was his assessment; I thought he handled questions in this respect very ably from the Dispatch Box. I reiterate that the Government—and indeed the Prime Minister—have made it clear that a decision will be made and it will be made by the end of the year.

Railways: Swansea to Paddington

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 22nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As a general principle in life, it is often good to pause and reflect. I suggest to the noble Lord that it is something he should sometimes deploy. We have asked Sir Peter Hendy to look into the whole issue and the challenges that have arisen around electrification. He will report in the autumn and, after he does, I am sure we will return to this subject. As for the northern powerhouse, the plug is truly in and the switch is turned on.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, is it not something more to do with lack of engineering capacity, because we have not done very much electrification in recent years, until this Government came into office?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend speaks from great experience on these matters, not least because he has spoken from this Dispatch Box on the issue of skills. I am delighted that that is one of my specific portfolio responsibilities at the Department for Transport. As noble Lords will know, we have already established the Tunnelling and Underground Construction Academy, which I visited only last week, an incredible investment that has come out of the Crossrail project. Later this year, I will be joining the Secretary of State for the opening of the National Training Academy for Rail. Britain has some great challenges as far as the skills agenda is concerned. It is certainly this Government’s view that we not only meet the skills challenge domestically but establish institutions to provide for skills abroad as well.