Child Abuse
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble and learned Baroness speaks with great experience and expertise on this subject. Therefore, I am sure all noble Lords will join me in expressing great sadness that she has chosen to step down from the role for which she was selected, although we all appreciate the reasons why she did so. The Government fully recognise her ability in this regard. Certainly, it was the view of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that she should remain the chairman of this important inquiry. Turning to the substance of her remarks, I totally share the concerns she has raised. This is not just about looking backwards but is about ensuring that in the future we protect children in all facets of society. The important element is that we engage fully in this area, that no stone is left unturned historically and that no person feels that they are vulnerable to sexual abuse tomorrow. This is an abhorrent crime and the sooner we eradicate it from our society, the better. I am sure all noble Lords share that sentiment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we on this side of the House share those concerns. Noble Lords will recall that last Monday I raised our concern that there has been a 75% drop-off in the number of people added to the list of those barred from working with children and vulnerable adults. Last year, there were nearly 6,500 referrals to the Disclosure and Barring Service on the ground of suspicious behaviour, the majority of which came from local authorities, yet only 165 people were barred from working with children. Why are so few referrals being acted on? In the light of evidence that so many abusers go undetected, will the Government review and reconsider the changes made to the vetting and barring system?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Baroness raises an important point about these predators—there is no better word for it—who are sometimes undetected or sometimes are detected but action on them is not followed through. When researching this Question, I was startled by some of the statistics, including that of the 16,500 children currently at high risk of child sexual exploitation. The Government intend to pursue the very points the noble Baroness has raised through the inquiry panel that has been set up to look at these elements to ensure that, as I have said, this abhorrent crime is preventing from occurring in the future.
Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Amendment) Order 2013
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank both the noble Baronesses for their contributions. While brevity was the call of the day in the contribution by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the point was made very well that whatever policy we pursue, we want to ensure that we have the desired effect. One of the deep concerns which emerged, and which is behind the Government’s proposal, was the concern over London or the UK becoming a hub. That is not least because, when we are working alongside our European partners, some would perhaps argue that other countries across Europe, Holland being one of them, which have more liberal policies in these matters than we do have already implemented such bans.
I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the issue of changes in the pattern. One of the latest figures that we have seen for trafficking evidence is that between January and March 2014 there were 17 seizures of khat. Eleven and a half tonnes of khat were seized while being taken from the UK to France, en route to other countries. While it is just a small window, there has been a change, and I share those statistics with the Committee.
The decision to control khat under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and to adopt an escalation framework for policing khat possession offences was the outcome of a long and thorough consultation process. For the benefit of the Committee, this included research and inquiries into community perceptions and international evidence, which were led and published by the Government and then of course shared with the ACMD, and the ACMD’s own public evidence-gathering sessions and fact-finding visits about community concerns in England and Wales. I will come to some of the specific questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised.
The Home Secretary has made clear that the Government’s decision was finely balanced, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also acknowledged. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary also made clear that we do not dispute the ACMD’s scientific assessment of evidence on harms. The working protocol with the ACMD recognises the broader policy factors that the Government have had to consider alongside all available evidence on medical and social harms to inform drug control and classification decisions. The ACMD’s advice helped us to understand the complexity of issues surrounding khat which, in some communities, required our most careful attention.
Beyond the control of khat, we have responded positively to the ACMD’s recommendations on health and community-based interventions that we need to support and that can be tailored to meet local needs. Indeed, that was one of the concerns the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised. Public Health England has updated its joint strategic needs assessment guidance for local public health commissioners to this effect. It will advise them with reference to the ACMD’s recommendations and support providers to take appropriate action in centres of khat use, including preparations for a potential influx of khat users and their families once they find that the drug is no longer available.
The Alcohol and Drug Education and Prevention Information Service provides a tool kit for schools to meet local needs, which will include khat where necessary. The Government have also planned communications activity, including targeted community messaging in the lead-up to the control of khat and afterwards. Khat factsheets have been prepared for local organisations and front-line staff to communicate to users and their families the potential harms of khat, the implications of the law change and where to find locally available support. These factsheets will be made available in four key languages in addition to English: Arabic, Amharic, Somali and Swahili.
This co-ordinated response will support the delivery of our drug strategy aims in these communities to protect the public from drug harms, support dependent and vulnerable users into recovery, and support integration. The Government are fully committed to providing support to anyone who needs it to lead a drug-free life, and to promoting equality of chances among all our communities and citizens, regardless of background.
Law enforcement was another issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. The law enforcement response has been developed taking into account the localised and international nature of the khat trade. Law enforcement activity will start at our borders, due to the trade’s heavy reliance on airfreight and rapid transportation to the point of sale. It will then be for police forces to deal with any residual activity involving khat where there is a local issue. Our escalation policy and targeted messaging aim to reduce the risk of criminalising small groups of individuals by providing opportunities for local agencies to work with vulnerable users and their families in a sensitive and proportionate manner. Information about local support services will be more readily available.
Before I finish this section, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about the support being given to police and what plans are in place. There is national police guidance in the khat possession for personal use intervention framework, which was produced in January 2014. If she has not yet seen a copy of that, I will be happy to provide it to her. She raised issues about the equality statement and Ministers’ knowledge. Ministers were aware of the equality statement and were fully involved with it, but it was signed off by a senior civil servant.
On social harms enforcement, these harms are quite difficult to assess in certain respects—which I suppose applies to any drug, but it is particularly true of khat. We recognise that there is a need for close monitoring. In that regard, perhaps I may turn to some of the specific questions on this issue raised by the noble Baroness. On reviews, as recommended by the ACMD, we will continue to monitor the situation on khat, as we do with all other banned drugs. We recognise the need to review the outcomes of policies specific to khat in local communities, in addition to the collation of local and national data on prevalence, treatment and seizures, as we do with other drugs.
Nationally, we have reintroduced a question on khat use in the Crime Survey for England and Wales and will create a khat-specific offence recording code to monitor local law enforcement and criminal justice agencies’ response to khat-related offences. The noble Baroness referred to the use of stop-and-search powers. As was announced by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary last summer, we will keep the use of stop-and-search powers, which are used too frequently in the Government’s opinion, under constant review.
On the law enforcement response, I have already alluded to the national policing guidance. This has been developed specifically for khat and will ensure that the police response to possession offences is consistent, proportionate and—most importantly—sensitive to local issues and community relations, which was another concern expressed by the noble Baroness. Warnings issued by police will be recorded locally and penalty notices for disorder will be available nationally. It is our belief that the combination of our escalation policy and communications activity will help to reduce the risk of criminalising users by providing opportunities for local agencies to work together to signpost vulnerable users and their families to available support services.
On health and education—another concern raised by the noble Baroness—Public Health England will, first, share and promote effective partnership working among local agencies responding to khat-related concerns; secondly, highlight the need to tailor drug prevention initiatives where appropriate; and, thirdly, continue to use the Alcohol and Drug Education and Prevention Information Service toolkit for schools to meet local needs, which may include needs in relation to khat. In its letter to the Home Secretary, the UK Somali network stated:
“As community leaders we have been in discussion with Local Authorities, Health Bodies and the Metropolitan Police Service to reduce any disruptions to society and with further guidance and support from all Government agencies, we will put in the necessary framework or safety net for the most vulnerable that require treatment and prevention at the local level”.
We know that this is already happening effectively with local authorities at a local level.
The noble Baroness also asked about the wider, international concerns relating to specific countries, including Kenya in particular. We will of course communicate UK khat policy updates throughout all our international posts. With regard to Kenya, the Home Secretary has set out the Government’s response to the Home Affairs Select Committee’s report on khat, including the concern raised about the potential impact of a UK khat ban on the Meru region’s khat industry. We of course appreciate the associated concerns that have been raised about livelihoods, and that is why the UK continues and will continue to deliver a number of projects in Meru county throughout the Kenya market access programme, which is intended to better enable low-income households to participate in a range of value-added markets. For example, this programme currently supports work on aquaculture, livestock and improving the productivity of agricultural communities in Kenya. The Government are also considering how best to improve the commercialisation of rangelands, including through supporting investment in the livestock value chain, tourism and leisure, as well as in other value-added markets. It is our belief that through these objectives and working together with the Kenyans we will achieve the objective of lifting some of the poorest Kenyans out of poverty and providing Kenya with an exit from aid.
I trust that I have answered most of the questions. It is notable that the noble Baroness rightly raised some specific issues about communities that are impacted by khat, the Somali community in particular. Perhaps I may share a quote from Mohamed Ibrahim, who is chair of the London Somali Youth Forum, in his letter to the Home Secretary in July 2013. He wrote:
“I would like to inform the Government that Somali youths, community/mothers and professionals are fully behind such ban, because this about unlocking their potential as citizens, removing barriers to progress”.
I assure noble Lords that we will continue to monitor the situation in the UK, which will help to develop the evidence base for future research into understanding the links between khat use and its associated harms, as the ACMD has recommended.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the Minister, who has made every effort to address the points that I raised. He is right—this is a finely balanced decision. I am a bit disappointed with some of his answers. I know he made an effort to address them, but I raised specific points that were not out of the blue because I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and his office last week. There have also been discussions over the weekend between my colleagues in the other place and the Government. I would like to consider further the points that the noble Lord has made. The implementation of this measure is so important. When something is finely balanced, the implementation has to be very sensitive, and he has not been able to satisfy me on my specific points about the review or about policing. I should like to consider whether a further debate on the Floor of the House is needed, but I am grateful for the noble Lord’s efforts to address a number of the points I raised.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Ketamine etc.) (Amendment) Order 2014
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation and to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for the expertise that she brings to this issue. I assume that when she said that the advisory committee to the sub-committee on the misuse of drugs was split on this issue, the kinds of issues that she was raising were ones that caused the concern. I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on this one.
With such a serious subject, it is a moment of light relief to enjoy the Minister’s pronunciations of the drugs involved. It is one of those rare occasions when I am grateful that I am not the Minister so I do not have to worry about the pronunciations. But the harms of ketamine and the other drugs have been recognised and are alarming. Successive drugs surveys over the past five years have shown that ketamine in particular has become established as a drug of choice for those who go clubbing and for recreational use, and many of those people will have little idea or knowledge of the dangers they face.
There is not really any strong evidence that reclassification will have any great impact on the prevalence of those drugs, and I am concerned about the public health campaigns that are needed. Very clear messaging needs to go out, and it needs to start in school. Recreational drug users in clubs are more discerning than those who are addicted to drugs, and other more vulnerable users, and are therefore more susceptible to such messages because they are legal-high users. If you have spoken to parents who have lost children, or whose children have been harmed or damaged by recreational drug use, you will know that the messaging needs to be much stronger and much better than it is at the moment. There is a danger that the Government will step back a bit and not take a sufficiently proactive role in this regard to prevent the harms taking hold of a number of young people.
I want to press the Minister on a couple of things. One is the FRANK website. Whenever I raised these issues previously, Ministers always told me, “Ah, we’ve got the FRANK website”. How effective is it? It seems to me that for someone to look at the FRANK website, they have to be interested in the first place and want to understand what is involved. We need to be reassured of its effectiveness. We have to aim further than those who seek out the site because clearly it does not have a wide enough reach. We are not reaching too many of the people who are recreational drug users and who go to clubs and raves but do not understand the harm they are causing themselves. I would like to hear some more not just about the FRANK website but about targeting recreational drug users.
We do not oppose this order because we recognise that there are very serious harms. In relation to ketamine, the Explanatory Memorandum talks about the,
“intense detachment that can be unpleasant and frightening and can put the user in a position of vulnerability to robbery, assault or rape”.
It is not just the harm that the drug causes but the harm that is caused to the person who becomes detached and dissociated from their surroundings and therefore particularly vulnerable. There are those who are making significant amounts of money out of causing this harm to others, but I also take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay: I am sure that the Government do not want to cause problems for those who require drugs such as ketamine for pain control or other medical purposes. If the noble Lord can give us an assurance in that regard, or even tell us that he will take this away and come back to us, that will be extremely helpful. We do not oppose this order and I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I thank both noble Baronesses and the Deputy Chairman for their kind words. It is always a challenge when you are looking to pronounce words that you are not familiar with. With two young children, now I know the challenges they face—if nothing else, it has taught me greater patience in helping them with their reading skills. Nevertheless, I thank the noble Baronesses for their broad support of the Government’s position, and the Committee more widely. I trust that, as both noble Baronesses acknowledged, the Government have made the case for the order to be approved in the House on the basis of the latest available evidence and the ACMD’s advice.
Approval of this order will ensure that our drug laws are effective in relation to both established medicines and newly developed pharmaceutical drugs entering the UK market that are being sought for misuse. It will also ensure that we are taking effective action on compounds that have no legitimate use outside research and which are already being pushed on to the legal-highs market.
From having done a debate on the issue of legal highs previously in the House, I think that everyone, no matter where they are in the argument, is cognisant of the fact that for anything that is banned today there will be a derivative ready and on the shelves tomorrow. This is something on which we need to be increasingly vigilant. We will of course ensure that those drugs that have a legitimate use in healthcare and veterinary practice continue to be available under a regulatory framework which protects the public from their potential harms.
Before I turn specifically to the questions that were raised by the noble Baronesses, I commend the ACMD for its continuous work and support of our priorities, including on new psychoactive substances. I have already mentioned that the fast pace of the new psychoactive market continues to require us to be ever more careful with the prioritisation of our resources, and underscores the need for closer working within a broader network of partners in the UK and abroad, and the need to preserve the integrity of our drug laws. The ACMD’s advice also reminds us of the dangers of prescription medicine when misused.
I turn to some of the questions that were raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, speaks with great expertise in these areas. I listened carefully to the issues that she raised. On reclassifying ketamine, as noble Lords are aware, ketamine is already controlled and scheduled, and therefore available for legitimate use in healthcare. As a result, we are able to reclassify it without impacting on its availability for legitimate use. By reclassifying at the earliest opportunity, the Government are sending out a strong message to those who misuse the drug. I assure the noble Baroness that a final decision on scheduling will be made after a public consultation to assess the impact of its schedule 2 status, as recommended by the ACMD.
The noble Baroness asked about other issues relating to its availability. The ACMD has recommended that this subject be subject to a public consultation to assess the impact should ketamine be scheduled, as I have said. As such, ketamine will continue to remain a schedule 4 part 1 drug until a final decision is made on the schedule in which it will be placed following the public consultation.
The noble Baroness made some valid points on availability and the issue of the licensing fee, particularly for hospices. Anyone who has experienced, sometimes sadly and tragically, the absolutely sterling work that hospices do will know that, while it involves great personal tragedy for a lot of the families involved, the role of hospices in the lives of those who are perhaps at their final point is quite incredible. The Government are cognisant of the incredible role they play in community and society. I therefore say to the noble Baroness that licensing requirements will come into play only after rescheduling. I have already mentioned that in the context of the public consultation. On ketamine, I will look at Hansard again to see whether there are any outstanding questions.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that that is very much the case. However, I will counter the noble Baroness’s suggestion by asking her, if she is aware of the names of those bodies, to please forward them, and I shall ensure that officials include them in the official notice of consultation.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised a couple of questions about talking to FRANK. I remember that when I first came across this website in local government, my first question was, “Who’s Frank?”, because he seemed to know an awful lot. Of course, FRANK is the website used to share information. The noble Baroness makes a valid point about ensuring that the support and information that is available should not be restricted to just one particular website. Whether we are talking about institutes of higher education or about clubs et cetera—wherever drugs may be used for recreational use—it is important that people are informed about the availability of this website. I have taken on board a couple of suggestions that the noble Baroness made. I also say to her that drugs education is part of the science national curriculum at key stages 2 and 3. Provision in this area can be built also through personal, social, health and economic discussions. The Talk to Frank website was relaunched. More than 35 million people have now used it and millions have called the FRANK helpline.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
The Minister said that 35 million people have used the website. Is that 35 million individual users, or have there been 35 million occasions on which somebody has looked at the site?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I would suggest that it is the latter: it refers to hits on the website. The noble Baroness’s point is well made and I understand it.
The noble Baroness made some very practical suggestions. I think that we are all at one in believing that we need to tackle the misuse of drugs. If so-called “legal highs” are still available on the market, they should be made available in an orderly fashion. Wherever information can be shared, it should be shared as widely as possible through the healthcare system and any other social support system—the FRANK website is one such example. If there are suggestions as to where other tools can be used to ensure that we make this information more readily available, I am sure that we would all welcome them in terms of sharing best practice. As I said in my opening remarks, when I was in local government we encouraged the sharing of information through local healthcare providers and the local healthcare system to ensure that information was available to all.
Finally, on the new psychoactive substances review, the Government are conscious that more needs to be done to tackle the emergence of new psychoactive substances. This is why my honourable friend the Minister for Crime Prevention is leading a review by an expert panel on how the UK’s response to new psychoactive substances can be enhanced beyond the existing measures. The expert panel’s primary purpose is to look at how the current legislative framework can be strengthened, as well as at the health and educational aspects of the challenges that we face. The expert panel is expected to report its findings to Ministers in late spring.
I thank both noble Baronesses who participated in this debate for their broad support. They have both made useful suggestions on how we can move this forward. I hope that noble Lords will find that this legislative measure is conducive to ensuring that the public are protected as much possible from the harm caused by drugs that can be dangerous when misused. I commend the order to the Committee.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon(11 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I can be brief with this group of government amendments which implement the recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in respect of certain of the delegated powers in Parts 1, 4 and 5 of the Bill. The amendments to Clauses 55, 56 and 57 are worthy of particular comment. The Delegated Powers Committee argued that, in relation to the public spaces protection orders, the current provisions in the Bill requiring a local authority to consult with the chief officer of police and community representatives was too narrow given the potential impact of such orders. The committee further argued that there should be a general duty to publicise the intention to make a notice. We are happy to accept the point made by the committee. The amendments to Clause 55 therefore require a local authority to publicise its intention to make an order so as to allow persons affected to make representations. In the normal way, a local authority would be bound to consider any such representations before making an order. This process is also replicated where the local authority plans to extend, vary or discharge an existing order by the amendments to Clauses 56 and 57 respectively. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I was a bit slow on to my feet; I suspected that there may be other noble Lords wishing to speak on this.
The noble Lord will recall that these are the amendments over which I last week raised our concerns about their being tabled late. The anticipation was that they would be debated the day after they were laid, so I am pleased that we have had a gap and welcome the opportunity to look at them more closely.
The amendments to Clause 55 are in response, as the noble Lord has said, to recommendations from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Government had tried to confer a wide-ranging and significant power on local authorities to control the ways in which public spaces are used without any requirement to publicise the public spaces protection order before it was made. We agree with the committee that that would have been inappropriate delegation of powers. I am pleased that the Government have tabled the amendment, which would require a local authority to publish the text of the proposed order, if I understand it correctly, or an extension in duration of an existing order, or any variation in a public spaces protection order. It adds clarity, which I welcome, but there are still concerns about the amended clause that will need to be addressed later in passage of the Bill.
As the noble Lord said, government Amendments 56ADA and 56ADB on orders relating to the Housing Act—those on absolute grounds for possession of anti-social behaviour—and government Amendment 100 about the granting of injunctions will ensure that those elements are subject to the affirmative procedure. We have serious concerns about these proposals. The amendments at least provide for a greater degree of accountability of the legislative process and add greater scrutiny to these powers, which we find deeply flawed. There are loopholes and my noble friend Lord Rosser will be speaking to those in the course of today’s debate.
I will give one example. Clause 4 specifies the bodies which are authorised to apply under Clause 1 for an injunction against a person to prevent them engaging in conduct capable of causing nuisance and annoyance. Subsection (5) of that clause will enable changes to be made to bodies and persons who are authorised to apply for an injunction under Clause 1, including making changes to the circumstances in which a body may make such an application. The Government’s view has been challenged, and I think they now accept this: it is not a general power to amend but is restricted to adding persons who may apply for an anti-social behaviour order under Section 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
The Delegated Powers Committee said that the Home Office’s explanation does not take account of the different nature of an anti-social behaviour order from an injunction under Clause 1, including the different tests to be applied in each case when determining an application. As a result, the Government have now tabled amendments whereby this would now rightly be subject to an affirmative procedure, which is much more appropriate.
Government Amendments 56ADA and 56ADB relate to subsections (10) and (11) of Section 84A of the Housing Act 1985. One of the conditions that, if met, could be used to trigger repossession proceedings, is that the tenant,
“or a person living in or”,
even,
“visiting the dwelling, has been convicted of a ‘serious offence’; and that offence was committed in the locality of the dwelling, against a person who lives in the locality, or against the landlord or a person employed in connection with the landlord’s housing management functions”.
The Delegated Powers Committee stated that,
“the scope of the power is not limited in any way, but simply allows the addition or removal of any indictable offence. In our view, this is a significant Henry VIII power, since the way in which it is exercised will have a direct effect on the circumstances in which a court will be required to order possession”.
Therefore we certainly agree with the government amendment that it is more appropriate that these amendments subject this process to the affirmative procedure. Obviously, the repossession process can have a hugely detrimental impact on people’s lives, and as such, any such power introduced by the Government must be monitored closely. Noble Lords have to be aware that we have serious concerns about that policy. My noble friend Lord Rosser will speak about that in more depth when we come to our debate on Clauses 86 and 89 stand part.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
As a point of clarification, I am fully aware that it is not three years in every case—it is up to three years. However, one of my concerns is that, because of the cost of renewal and the uncertainties around that, a number of local authorities may think that three years has become the default. It will be easier for them to run to the maximum of three years rather than face the bureaucracy and costs of renewal by doing otherwise.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. In doing so I make the general point that sometimes in debates such as this you hear some noble Lords saying that the period is too long and others saying that it is too short, and so going down the middle is normally the solution. The noble Baroness talked about perfection. Dare I say that, perhaps on this clause, we are as near to that as we can be? I will address the amendments and the questions as far as I can but I hope, as I always do with the noble Baroness opposite, that she will gain some reassurance from what I say, if not from my words then at least from my tone.
These amendments relate to the process of reviewing and extending public spaces protection orders, as we have heard. As noble Lords are aware, there is currently no statutory review point for the orders we are replacing and they can run indefinitely. The argument has been made about where we are today. Putting in a limit is a positive way forward, otherwise—to quote the noble Baroness’s words back at her—these orders run on and on. It is important to look at how they should be reviewed. I believe that there should be a formal review point, which we have decided to set at three years.
The effect of Amendments 41B and 44A, which stand in my noble friend’s name, would of course be to limit this to 12 months. I have listened to the arguments that she put forward. As we have made clear in the guidance, orders do not have to last for three years—a point just made by the noble and learned Lord. There is flexibility within this, according to the circumstance and the situation and at the discretion of the issuing authority, including the local authority, as to what is appropriate. If appropriate, these can be reviewed or discharged before three years have elapsed. My view is more qualified and endorsed after listening to the debate and I believe that three years is a proportionate balance between the needs of users and the protection of the community, especially given the everlasting orders that we are seeking to replace.
Amendments 44B and 49A—which I take to be an alternative to Amendments 41B and 44A—would ensure that orders could not be extended more than once. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, raised the specific point that the legislation allows only for renewal. I am sure that he has reflected on Clause 56; there are provisions specifically to allow for the recurrence of a renewal of an order. He is nodding so I am sure that he agrees with the point I am making.
Of course, there are situations in which longer-term restrictions could be necessary; for example, as I am sure my noble friend is aware, these orders will replace, among other things, dog control orders, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said. This means that a public spaces protection order will be required, as a dog control order is now, to ensure that the fouling of public land is dealt with. I am sure that my noble friend will agree that this is not a problem that can be fixed in three or indeed six years and an ongoing restriction is therefore required. As such, preventing the further renewal of orders would mean communities having to put up with dog mess as well as other potentially anti-social behaviours, such as public drinking.
Turning to Amendment 48, my noble friend will be aware that the orders being replaced by the public spaces protection order do not include a formal review and, as such, can last indefinitely. In reforming the powers, we believed that it was only right that a statutory timeframe was built in, and I am sure that my noble friend will welcome that in principle. As the legislation states, the review should be conducted every three years.
Of course, I understand the concerns raised by my noble friend about the potential impact of a three-year restriction if applied to all orders but, as I have already said, the legislation is clear that councils can limit the duration of an order to a period of less than three years. Indeed, as the draft guidance suggests, in a situation where a public right of way is being closed for the first time to try to deal with a specific issue, the council may well prefer to review this after a shorter period of time.
To make this amendment would mean that all orders covering rights of way would have to be reviewed every six months. This would include, as I have already mentioned, welcome restrictions to deal with dog fouling and the consumption of alcohol. This would turn the new power into a bureaucratic nightmare that resulted in councils that decided to use it living in a loop of constant consultation and review. As I have said before, in my own experience as a local councillor for 10 years, consultations were regularly part and parcel of our decision-making, but if we had to issue an order and then immediately start another consultation, I fear that we would be constantly in consultation mode.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I take on board what my noble friend is saying. That is why I believe that, as the clauses are drafted, there is flexibility with regard to the circumstances, the situation and indeed the tenure appropriate to the offence that is being perceived. I have already flagged up that in this instance, if an issue arose for the first time, the local authority may well be minded to apply an order of smaller duration to allow for exactly the kind of review and assessment that my noble friend is suggesting. I understand the point my noble friend makes and, as I have said, it probably refers more to the restricting of access than anything else. I have listened and we will consider how to make the guidance more specific in this regard.
Finally, Amendment 55A relates to appeals against public spaces protection orders. My noble friend has asked for clarification of whether there is a right of appeal against the extension of an order. That is a fair point. The amendment would provide an additional opportunity to challenge an order every time it was extended. This could result in additional appeals, even if the circumstances had not otherwise changed. That said, my noble friend has raised an important point and I will take it away and reflect further on it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked if I could predict the number of orders and renewals. Crystal balls are hard to come by and the important thing we are seeking to do here is to ensure that the orders are specific, time-limited and can be reviewed. Again, if the behaviour has been corrected, the order does not need to stay in place for ever. That is an important point to bear in mind. How often are we expecting the orders to be renewed? That is very much up to the local authorities to decide. One order can cover more than one behaviour with a shorter consultation process, so there is less paperwork, less bureaucracy and less delay. Reviews can be quite light-touch, so one review may be more intensive than another. It would be almost impossible to give a cost for each review.
We should not forget that there is an absolute need for democratic accountability for the continued operation of these orders. The Government feel that the balance has been struck. The noble Baroness talked about the Ramblers and Battersea Dogs and Cats Home. Perhaps she would like to respond and tell me whether she believes that what we are seeking to do in Clause 56 is appropriate, because the current situation means that there is no time limit. We are seeking to ensure three years, with the possibility to review, and a three-year period is allowed for only if the local authority chooses to persist with that; if it chooses to put one year down, that is its prerogative.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
The noble Lord invites me to say whether I think it is a good idea. The way to find that out is to review the operation after a couple of years. I am not really satisfied that saying that because some people want one year and some people want it for ever, if we find the middle number that is the right way to go. That does not address specific circumstances but I thank him for trying to answer my questions. He missed one: I asked what assessment had been made of why these were needed and what demand there was. Who has called for these changes to be made and have one order covering all three issues?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I hope I have illustrated that there is a need to decrease bureaucracy when you take three and turn it into one. Coming back to a point that the noble Baroness raised about enforcement, it makes that much easier. Certainly, my own experience in local government substantiates that. I am sure other noble Lords may share that experience.
It is right and proper that these orders should be regularly reviewed. The noble Baroness asks what evidence there is and why we have taken this route. The Government believe it is right to devolve these decisions to the people who are on the coalface, so to speak: the local authorities, the people who are closest to circumstances at a local level. I hope that I can share my own experience but also that of anyone who has served in a local authority. The last thing you need is central government or a central diktat telling you what is appropriate for your local area.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon(11 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I would comment briefly that having looked at these amendments, Amendment 22QA seems to be a particularly reasonable and sensible way forward. If you think of the local authority as being at the centre of its place—not just part of the local council but managing the area—it seems very reasonable and sensible. This is perhaps a case, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and my noble friend Lord Harris said earlier, of wanting the parts of the Bill that are useful to work. This may well assist the Government in ensuring that the clause is effective.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, Amendments 22NC and 22QA are proposed by my noble friend to change the process at the point where a community protection notice is issued. Currently, when issuing a community protection notice, an authorised person—be that a police officer, an officer of a local authority or a person that the local authority has designated, such as a social landlord—would have to inform any body or individual that the person issuing the notice thinks appropriate. Amendment 22NC seeks to remove this requirement.
Amendment 22QA, in my noble friend’s name, then seeks to impose a requirement that an authorised person who is not the local authority must inform the relevant local authority of its issuing of a notice. I recognise that it is important that a local authority is aware that community protection notices are in operation in its area but, conversely, it is also important, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, that local authorities notify the police. The reality is that police and local authorities will be working together to tackle local anti-social behaviour and therefore it is not necessary to put into the Bill the requirement to inform the local authority. The existing provision in Clause 40(6) states that the authorising officer “must … inform” any appropriate individual or body of the issue of a community protection notice, and it is difficult to imagine any case where the relevant local authority would fall outside the definition of “appropriate”. I do not think it necessary to specify that the local authority must be informed.
However, there may well be others whom it would be appropriate to inform as well. As I have suggested, the police will often have an interest. I fear that the effect of my noble friend’s amendments would be to restrict the requirement to informing the local authority only.
Our guidance for front-line professionals states clearly that, where a community protection notice is being issued, there is clear merit,
“in involving the local council, which will have many years of experience in tackling environmental issues, when deciding whether or not to serve a CPN”.
As I and my noble friend have said on previous occasions, the guidance can be amended as we move through the parliamentary process. Of course, if there is a requirement, we can set a clearer expectation on the necessity of ensuring that the local authority is fully involved.
As an aside—I speak with some experience, although perhaps not with the same number of years’ experience as my noble friend—in my 10 years in local government, I served as both the cabinet member for the environment and then as the cabinet member for policing and community engagement. In that respect, my experience—albeit on a London council—showed that the local authority, the police and other local agencies work well on the ground, and we have faith that these agencies will continue to work well as we move forward.
Amendment 22QF concerns remedial works carried out by the local authority where there has been a breach of a community protection notice. Remedial works may be carried out if a person fails to comply with the terms of a notice served on them. The local authority may carry out the remedial work without the consent of the owner or the person who had defaulted on the notice on land “open to the air”, and Amendment 22QF would prevent this. The local authority cannot simply enter premises at will; I am sure that my noble friend knows that to be true. It must seek the “necessary consent” of the defaulter and the owner of the premises if that person is not the defaulter. However, there may be circumstances where the local authority has taken all reasonable efforts to find the owner but has not been able to do so. I do not believe that communities should continue to suffer in such circumstances, and that is why it is important that the authority is able to carry out remedial works.
I hope that my noble friend is reassured by the explanations I have given of what is behind the Government’s proposals here, and that he will be minded to withdraw his amendment.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Baroness Smith of Basildon(11 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, may I raise a point about the further consideration of the Bill today? At 6.03 pm yesterday, we received quite a lengthy letter from the Minister with amendments that I am told are to be debated today. Is it appropriate to receive amendments at such late notice for debate the following day?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, as with the Opposition, we have also seen all the amendments and have been working through them. They have been tabled and agreed for debate; that is the programme that is scheduled for today. I know that the noble Baroness appreciates the challenges of the number of amendments we have on this Bill, and we wish to make progress.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am sorry. I understand the need to make progress. The Minister will know from the amendments we have tabled and our contributions to this debate that we agree with him in seeking to make progress. I am, however, questioning whether it is right to table amendments and notify some Members of your Lordships’ House—not all—at 6.03 pm for debate on the following day. That seems completely inappropriate. As we are speaking, I am trying to go through all the amendments to ensure that we have a response and can fully consider them. This House prides itself on scrutiny, but this does not leave us the opportunity to scrutinise adequately these amendments tabled by the Government.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I say to the noble Baroness that anyone who has been in the previous days of this Committee would not doubt for a moment that the House has been very careful in its scrutiny of the Bill. That is reflected in where we currently are in the progress of the Bill. As I said, these amendments have been tabled and we, as the Government, have looked at them. We look forward to the debate and the scrutiny that will take place of them.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I believe that the clause as drafted could apply to an individual or an organisation. When we discuss that wording, it will be clarified. This applies to an individual or an organisation—which incorporates the issue raised by the noble Lord. In addition, where the use of business premises has resulted, or is likely to result, in nuisance to members of the public or disorder nearby, the new closure powers that we are introducing, to which the noble Baroness referred, will be able to close a premises immediately. The police and/or local authorities can act quickly where a business acts anti-socially. Again, breach is a criminal offence with the potential for a significant fine.
It is also worth saying that sometimes it may be a particular individual who is the root cause of the anti-social behaviour—for instance, the business owner or a store manager—and not the business as a whole. In those circumstances, the police, council or others listed in Clause 4 could apply to the court for an injunction against the individual on the test of nuisance or annoyance. Hopefully that would deal with the issue and, while breach in this case may not be a criminal offence, it could still result in a large fine or even a custodial sentence.
In putting forward this amendment, the noble Baroness said that it was a probing amendment to seek clarification. I hope that on the basis of the example I have given, by drawing the attention of noble Lords to the fact that we will be discussing this issue under Part 4 and with my explanation, she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. I am not sure whether it will be helpful to probe the matter further when we get to community protection notices, because they deal with individuals. If there is a persistent litter problem in certain premises, it would not be possible to have a community protection notice against every individual. My worry with his other proposal, the closure of premises, is that it would deal with the problem by closing the business. Often, it might be better to take preventive action with the corporate body, the business, to prevent closure and to deal with the problem, rather than to act against individuals and then, if that does not work, close the business. I am trying to find a pre-emptive way to prevent the problem rather than deal with it once it had happened. However, I am grateful to the noble Lord for taking the point seriously. Perhaps we can return to it and discuss it further when we consider community protection. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.