Children and Families Bill

Lord Addington Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the president of Livability, which is an organisation that cares for people with complex needs. I am very concerned about this issue because we have two colleges for young people aged 16-plus where their social and educational needs are met together. Sometimes it is quite difficult to differentiate between the two, as we found during Ofsted inspections. If young people have extremely serious difficulties that need perpetual health provision and you are trying to help those young people to learn skills—the sort of skills whereby they can sit and pick up a cup instead of screaming all day, which is how they are when they arrive—it can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between education, social care and health provision. I am simply asking that nothing in the Bill should make that even more difficult. Usually we have difficulty getting payment for the social element of these colleges, but recently we have found ourselves being given the social element without the educational element of the colleges. Some really difficult issues are emerging and I should like to stop them before they develop. I should be delighted if the noble Lord, Lord Nash, would one day visit Nash College.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, can my noble friend give us some idea about how the Government will remove those things that are not for educational purposes in the case of a young person with complex needs or a problem that prevents them accessing the process of education? That seems to be what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, started with. Getting some clarification now about how that process will take place will be of help. If we have a system in place that gives some degree of confidence, I think that we can probably move on from this. If not, it will be a real problem.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be brief, as we are keen to clarify this point. I shall speak to Amendments 71, 72 and 73 about the circumstances in which provision that would otherwise be health or social care provision should be treated as special educational provision. In doing so, I would like to comment on a couple of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, made. If I understood him correctly, he said that we needed a child development strategy for every child. I would say that we have such a strategy in the massive reform programme that this Government have put in place for schools.

I will try to get my facts right because I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will write to me if I do not. We have just been told by the OECD that we came bottom—joint 21st with Italy and Spain, out of 24 countries—for our school leavers, and we have just been told by Alan Milburn that we are the most socially immobile country in Europe. That is why we have a schools strategy and a massive reform programme in place. However, this Bill is about SEN. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about the four pathways that he mentioned. On training, which he also mentioned, I just signed a letter to him today on this point about initial teacher training and other professional development for teachers, which is founded on the teacher standards that were introduced in September 2012. Child development is an important part of those standards.

I turn to the amendments. During the pre-legislative scrutiny of the SEN provisions of the Bill, the Minister for Children and Families gave an undertaking to maintain the existing protections for parents in the new system. Clause 21(5) was added to the Bill before introduction in the other place as part of that undertaking. It seeks to replicate as far as possible the case law established under the present SEN legislation, which, in our view, makes clear that health provision such as therapies can be educational, non-educational or both, depending on the individual child and the nature of the provision. Case law has established in particular that since communication is so fundamental in education and in addressing speech and language impairment, it should normally be treated as educational provision unless there are exceptional reasons for doing otherwise. We have reflected this in section 7.9 on page 109 of the draft SEN code of practice.

I think we all share the aim of carrying the current established position through into the new system. I understand the concerns that have been expressed in this debate that the current drafting does not get this quite right. This is complicated legal territory and it has not been straightforward to find the right formulation, as evidenced by the different approaches taken by each of these three amendments. I know that various parts of the sector have sought legal advice on this issue; I understand that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, follows the advice that the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists received, and we are currently looking at that advice. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said that she also had received advice, and we would be delighted to look at that as well. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this further and see what progress can be made with noble Lords outside the Committee. With that reassurance, therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.