Greater Manchester Spatial Framework

Debate between Lisa Nandy and Andrew Percy

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy]

Absolutely. The housing figures are generated by the local authorities. I cannot comment on their validity or the merits of the Greater Manchester numbers because of the obvious proprietary reasons, which I will say more about in a moment. The figures are locally determined and are not provided by central Government.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (William Wragg) on securing the debate and on representing his constituents today with skill and passion. I have listened carefully to the concerns about potential green-belt loss, brownfield development and the capacity of local roads and infrastructure generally to cope. I will respond to as many of the points made as possible in the time available.

I cannot comment on the Greater Manchester spatial framework in detail because of the proprietary reasons to which I just referred. It will be subject to examination by independent inspectors appointed by the Secretary of State. My quasi-judicial role in the planning system means that I may have to intervene at later points on matters relating to the plan. I am therefore unable to comment in any greater detail, other than to say that my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove painted a familiar picture of the difficult choices that have to be made by local areas to secure economic growth and to tackle the historical under-delivery of homes, including affordable homes.

I will briefly clarify what it takes for a local authority to plan for growth. The context is important. The process begins with the local authority understanding the disparate needs and aspirations of local people and gathering a detailed evidence base—again, to respond to my hon. Friend’s point, this is bottom up, from local authority level—to determine the needs of its area. That has to be balanced, of course, with the views of residents, who, as many hon. Members rightly said, should be at the centre of the planning system, and with Government policy, MPs’ views, environmental constraints and external pressures from developers.

The plan then has to identify objectively what development is needed for employment, economic growth, housing and infrastructure, to come up with strategic options and, of course, to engage local people again in deciding where that development should go. I reiterate that this is a very democratic process, and rightly so. Local people need to be at the heart of it.

The dates for the current consultation have already been referred to, but there has been a series of public consultations on the spatial framework draft plan. The consultation document was published on 31 October, and the consultation will end on 23 December. A final draft of the plan is expected in 2017.

[Lisa Nandy]

The picture that the Minister paints is very different from my experience and that of many of my colleagues and my constituents. Most of my constituents had never heard anything about the plan before I wrote to tell them about it. Even the name—Greater Manchester spatial framework—is deliberately off-putting to people. It is incredibly difficult for the public to get into these documents, understand what is proposed and make their voices heard. It would be very welcome if the Minister acknowledged those difficulties and put his support behind the public having a real say in the matter.

[Andrew Percy]

I served for 10 years as a local councillor, and I cannot pretend that agreeing our joint local plans or strategic planning policies necessarily excited the electorate or was the talk of the Dog and Duck on a weekend, but the public are certainly interested in the delivery of more homes, industrial development and all the rest of it. This process is managed locally, not by central Government, so the hon. Lady will need to speak to her local authorities about how they have advertised and consulted the public; it is not a matter for me to determine.

Youth Service Provision

Debate between Lisa Nandy and Andrew Percy

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Lisa Nandy]

Given the problems that the hon. Gentleman outlined about non-statutory services becoming poorer and less of a priority in times of trouble, does he support a statutory youth service?

[Andrew Percy]

I am open to debate on that. I do not have a particularly strong view one way or the other. Provision for young people is something that local authorities should just want to make, because it is part of their core function. If we have local democracy those decisions should be for local councillors, and if they do not choose to provide those services local people have the option of throwing them out. Young people can play an important role in that if more of them vote. I always say to young people that the reason they do not have a free bus pas when pensioners do can be seen from the turnout figures.

I have been painting a rosy picture up to now.

Academies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Lisa Nandy and Andrew Percy

Monday 26th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I should like to speak to amendments 8 and 9 and new clause 1. I shall possibly touch on amendment 4 as well. Over the past few weeks, it has been interesting for me, as a new Member, to listen to Labour Members telling us that a figure of 51% is the correct one in any decision. Today, however, I think it was the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) who told us that using a figure of 51% was an unacceptable way of coming to a decision. I am interested that their consistency on one argument does not necessarily carry over into another.

There are some sensible reasons behind amendment 9, in that one would probably want a consultation to have begun—and possibly even finished—before making an academy order. I suspect that as schools move along this route, that will indeed be the case. Today, however, I have been struck by the lack of confidence in our governing bodies and our head teachers. It has been staggering to listen to that. I sit as a school governor and I was until recently a school teacher. Perhaps I am judging hon. Members unfairly, but they seem to be giving the impression that governing bodies are educational asset strippers who want to move forward as quickly as possible without any consultation with parents. As a governor and someone who has worked as a teacher, I do not recognise that portrayal of governors as some kind of strange being.

[Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about Members not taking governors’ commitment seriously. I want to reassure him that that is certainly not the argument that many of us are putting forward. The point about governors, of which I am one, is that they have a strong duty to take into consideration the impact of changes on the children in their school. They attach the utmost importance to that duty. We are also asking them to take into account the impact of the proposed changes on the wider community, but they will be able to do that only if they consult the wider community. Many of us are concerned that that will not happen unless such a requirement is incorporated in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Amendment 8 does not mention the wider community; it simply mentions parents. We also now have community governors to represent the interests of the wider community. So it is untrue—sorry, it is incorrect to suggest that governors do not take into account the role of their school in the community. In fact, over the past few years, one of the great moves forward for most schools is that they now recognise their position at the centre of the local community, and no longer see their responsibility ending at the school gate or the perimeter fence. Most schools now work incredibly hard to build links with their communities.

[Lisa Nandy]

I accept that most schools see their role as being at the heart of their community, and I am grateful for that. The problem arises when a school does not see that as its role, and that is what many of these amendments are seeking to address.

[Andrew Percy]

I suspect that the hon. Lady and I will have to agree to differ on this point, otherwise we will end up bouncing backwards and forwards. Head teachers, teachers, governors and those who have attended a governors’ training course are generally well aware of their responsibilities beyond the boundary fence of their school.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

My hon. Friend has, I hope, allayed some of the fears of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Should the measures not succeed, or should the school not be happy with the position, the Bill would provide a route back.

We should trust governing bodies and governors to do their job. They are dedicated people, education professionals, well-intentioned parents, and well-intentioned people from local communities. They will not steamroller ahead against the wishes of parents and the wider community. They will take on board seriously the views and aspirations of local people. The weakness of not having a range of education provision is that we deny parents and pupils a choice over the curriculum that they want to follow. We end up with parents choosing between school A and school B, which are identical. There is nothing wrong with some competition, with giving parents the choice and with allowing them to vote with their feet. I urge the Committee to vote against the amendments.

[Lisa Nandy]

I want to speak particularly to my amendment 86, which is a probing amendment designed to understand the Government’s reasons for not including in the Bill consultation with key groups, including the wider community, prior to a school seeking academy status.

Previously, when maintained schools converted to academies, the local authority was obliged to consult widely. Although there was no legal requirement for public consultation where a new academy was to be established, the local authority at least had to be consulted. I am worried that that is not being replicated in the Bill. Despite some progress, the current wording on consultation is inadequate, requiring consultation only with

“such persons as they think appropriate”.

It is of the utmost importance that parents, pupils, staff and the local authority are consulted.

We have already talked a little about the importance of consulting children. I want also to draw attention to the United Nations convention on the rights of the child, which successive Governments have supported, and which sets the standard by which we expect children to be treated in this country. Part of that is about talking to children and listening to their views on matters that affect them. Few matters could affect children more than that currently under consideration by the Committee.

The changes will impact on all the groups to which I have referred, including the wider community, children who are not currently at school, children who are going on to school, and children who are at other schools. I will not rehearse the arguments that were advanced on Second Reading, but it is important to consider those in the context of the amendments.

The Government have said that they are committed to giving parents a greater voice. The National Governors Association has said that, in that case, it would like to see consultation with parents as part of that principle. I reiterate the point I made earlier that governors have a strong duty to put the children in their school first. I would like a provision for prior consultation with the wider community to be included in the Bill. That would mean that, before taking the decision to seek academy status, the governors were in command of the full facts. That cannot be controversial, and I cannot understand why the provision is not in the Bill.

Several groups have raised the concern with me that the wording of the Bill is so broad as to leave governing bodies open to legal action should they not carry out consultation with groups in a way that is considered proper. Will the Minister consider that in his response, as I would hate to see that happening to governing bodies? As a school governor, I would find it extremely worrying to find my school in that position.

[Lisa Nandy]

That brings me to a point that was raised with me by the TUC. The Government’s concept of the big society appears to feature the involvement of more and more people in the services that they own as members of the community, but this proposal, like some of the other measures that have been pushed through, seems to be directly at odds with that principle.

[Andrew Percy]

Would the hon. Lady care to comment on the previous Government’s conversion of schools to academies, and their school closures? Does she believe that there was proper consultation with parents and pupils then, and does she feel that there should have been ballots?

[Lisa Nandy]

I believe that we can always do better when it comes to consultation, but I also believe that the standard being set in the Committee today marks an extraordinarily low point in the history of consultation. I think that we should move on from what was done by the previous Government, and ensure that there is more consultation, not less.

Let me emphasise to the Minister that schools are at the heart of their local communities. If there is no consultation with the people who will be affected by the Bill, schools will drive a wedge between themselves and their communities, and I believe that we have an obligation to prevent that from happening. My amendment seeks to establish why the Government do not wish to ensure that the views of the community inform the decisions of schools. I should be grateful if the Minister could answer that question.