Northern Ireland Troubles: Legacy and Reconciliation

Debate between Lincoln Jopp and Peter Swallow

Wednesday 21st January 2026 Commons Chamber

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

I felt that it was important that I speak today as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. We had another member of the Committee, the right hon. Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne), in the Chamber until recently. When he came over to speak to me just now, I was slightly worried that he was defecting. However, I was assured that he was just letting me know that, unfortunately, he was not able to stay for the rest of the debate.

I want to start by acknowledging that there were differences of opinion on this important issue. Nevertheless, the Committee carried out its constitutional role to scrutinise this remedial order, as the Standing Orders of both Houses set out we must. As it was mandated to do, the JCHR has produced two reports on this remedial order, and it has been clear and unambiguous in its recommendation that it be approved by the House. I should emphasise that the focus of the reports was on the remedial order in front of us today, not on the Bill. I, similarly, will focus my remarks squarely on the order.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set out, this remedial order follows rulings by the High Court of Northern Ireland and the Court of Appeal that declared a number of provisions within the previous Government’s legacy Act to be incompatible with our human rights obligations under the European convention on human rights.

The legacy Act prohibited any criminal investigations into troubles-related offences from being initiated or continued. It also prohibited any criminal enforcement action in relation to non-serious troubles-related offences. It ended troubles-related civil claims that began after the legacy Act’s First Reading, and prohibited new ones. It also obliged the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery to give immunity from prosecution where certain conditions were met—and yes, this extended to giving immunity from prosecution to terrorists.

The legacy Act was a deeply flawed piece of legislation, a fact that has been reflected in the courts’ rulings on its incompatibilities with our human rights legislation. This order, alongside the Bill, seeks to remedy those incompatibilities.

[Lincoln Jopp]

As the hon. Member says, we are considering this order alongside the Bill. I am grateful to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which he sits, for producing this very good report, but I would like to try to get an answer that I did not get earlier. How is he reconciled with the fact that this remedial order is being used as a guillotine to gut an existing piece of legislation before his Government have put something else in place?

[Peter Swallow]

I am happy to jump forward in my speech to address the issue that the hon. Member raises, but I would just gently say that, by removing the incompatibilities, which the courts have put in legal limbo, this Government are quite rightly acting to correct those incompatibilities. That is good governance, not bad. Let me address his point more specifically. To say that it is unusual for any Government to introduce a remedial order and a Bill, both addressing incompatibilities, on the same day would be an understatement. Indeed, the Committee’s long-held view is that primary legislation is always preferable to address incompatibilities, where that is available—a view re-emphasised in our second report. But, importantly, we also recognise the unique complexities and sensitivities of this issue, and for that reason our recommendation was that this remedial order should be approved.

I acknowledge that this is an unusual remedial order, in that it is being presented at the same time as the Bill, as I have said. I welcome the Bill before the House as well. Unlike the legacy Act introduced by the previous Government, this Bill does not give immunity to terrorists. It recognises the rights of communities to access the justice that our legal framework affords to all. It also produces important safeguards for veterans, including protection from repeated investigations, the right to seek anonymity, the right not to be forced to travel to give evidence, protection in old age and protection from cold calling or unexpected letters.

Importantly, these safeguards include a right for veterans’ voices to be heard through the inclusion of veterans’ representatives in the statutory victims and survivors advisory group. These measures strike the balance between protecting those who served to keep the peace and protect life, and ensuring that terrorist acts are not granted immunity.

[Lincoln Jopp]

The hon. Member is describing the Bill, but we are not here to debate the Bill; we are here to debate the remedial order. I asked him why he was comfortable with the fact that the Government are guillotining a piece of law without putting something else in place, and he has not answered that yet. He has answered that they can, but he has not told us why they should.

[Peter Swallow]

As the report sets out, the Government set forward their reasons for proceeding with the remedial order alongside a Bill, and the Secretary of State has shared those reasons today. It always behoves a Government, where an incompatibility has been identified, to choose the manner in which to address it. There are four options. The first option is to do nothing, which we very well could have done. However, as the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler), eloquently pointed out, that would see us failing to comply with our international obligations, which I would not be comfortable with. The second option would be to introduce a remedial order that had to be approved urgently. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp) will forgive me if I do not remember the precise language while on my feet, but there is a route for a more rapid remedial order. That is not the route the Government decided to go down, and I welcome that as well, because it is important that we have the time to properly scrutinise anything on this most sensitive issue. The third option is the one that the Government have taken. The fourth option, of course, is to deal with it solely in primary legislation.

As the Secretary of State set out—he was very forthcoming in appearing before the Committee and providing additional correspondence to us—the decision he took was that the appropriate route was to address this with a remedial order. He did that because it was important to build trust in communities across Northern Ireland by more swiftly addressing the incompatibilities that have been identified. I hope that my fulsome response has addressed the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and that I can continue with my speech. [Interruption.] Fantastic. Thank you.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been clear that he recognises that this is a sensitive Bill which seeks to address not only the lasting legacy of a highly emotive and contested period of our history, but the enduring lived reality of what that legacy means for communities across Northern Ireland and the whole of the UK. For that reason, the Government have set out their grounds for seeking to use a remedial order. I referred to that in great detail.

I also emphasise that, given the nature of the Bill before the House, the legislation will take some time to progress as it is scrutinised by both Houses and, indeed, our Committee. [Interruption.] As you indicate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is more than enough from me in setting out the reasons why the Joint Committee on Human Rights recommended that this remedial order be approved. I end by emphasising that, as a member of the JCHR, I stand by our reports, and our considered recommendation to approve is clear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

I want to make a couple of points, one about democracy and one about service and justice. I am deeply uneasy about this remedial order being brought in today. I will make no criticism of those who are here, but for major parts of this debate over the past three hours, the Government Back Benches were empty and yet 20-plus veterans have stayed in the Public Gallery to watch our proceedings and see justice being done. I find it worrying. It is 6.57 pm on a Wednesday. There will be Members in the Tea Room and the bars, and Members working hard in their offices. The bells will ring, as the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) said, and they will come down and ask each other, “What are we voting on?” and they will say, “Oh, it’s a Northern Ireland thing.” What they will not realise is that this remedial order removes a law from existence before another one is put in place.

[Peter Swallow]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Lincoln Jopp]

I haven’t got time. I do not think that we are doing the House, or indeed Parliament, justice by proceeding in this way.

I was a soldier for 25 years and spent three and a half years in Northern Ireland. I once made the mistake of saying that to Ronnie Flanagan—he was the chief constable at the time—and he told me that I am only on my first tour. Soldiers put up with a lot. I was not given any more powers by this House than those of a private citizen—not really. They just slung a rifle round my neck and sent me off to do the Queen’s bidding. I happily did it and so did others. In my first of four Northern Ireland tours, two guardsmen—Guardsmen Fisher and Wright—were in a judgmental shooting situation, and they were convicted of murder by one man in a Diplock court and sentenced to life imprisonment, so soldiers put up with stuff.

But one of the things I find it very difficult to put up with is that when all the Government Members troop through the Lobby tonight, they will remove the prohibition on giving Gerry Adams compensation. I find that incredibly difficult because it is on an admin error: his internment order was signed by a Minister of State and not the Secretary of State. It is on that technicality that he will be able to get compensation for being interned and for trying to escape unsuccessfully—twice. He will get a triple whammy of compensation.