Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Leo Docherty and Deidre Brock

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Leo Docherty]

Respectfully, we have not left them in limbo. The situation is extremely difficult. It is difficult because of the depredations of—let me be very clear—the tyrannical regime of the Taliban; that is why we are in this situation. We have relocated more than 21,000 people, and we continue to work at pace with our mission in Pakistan and elsewhere to ensure that these people, despite the local troubles and difficulties, get the support they need.

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

5. What steps his Department is taking to support the monitoring of potential human rights abuses in (a) Israel and (b) the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Environment Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Leo Docherty and Deidre Brock

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 5th November 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Leo Docherty]

I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith for her warm wishes, which I will convey to the Minister, and for tabling amendment 189, which gives me the opportunity to explain how the Bill will ensure that there will be clarity over the respective remits of the OEP and the Committee on Climate Change. Government amendments 30 and 66 and new clause 4 will ensure that the OEP does not duplicate the work of the Committee on Climate Change, as well as requiring the two bodies to prepare a memorandum of understanding. I will come on to those in more detail in a moment.

Amendment 189 would remove clause 22(5), which would weaken the overall provision of the Bill to clarify the respective roles of the two bodies. That provision requires the OEP to set out in its strategy how it intends to avoid any overlap with the Committee on Climate Change when exercising its functions. That ensures that the avoidance of such an overlap would run through the OEP’s entire operation. That would be difficult to achieve simply through a memorandum of understanding. I therefore ask the hon. Member to withdraw amendment 189 to ensure that the Office for Environmental Protection and the Committee on Climate Change can work together seamlessly.

Government amendments 30 and 66 and new clause 4 are part of a package of measures, including statutory requirements already set out in the Bill, that help to clarify the distinct roles of the two bodies to ensure that they develop an effective working relationship. Government amendment 30 will ensure that the OEP does not duplicate the work of the Committee on Climate Change by providing that the OEP will not monitor or report on specific matters already within the statutory remit of the Committee on Climate Change. Government amendment 66 ensures the same effect in Northern Ireland should the Northern Ireland Assembly choose to extend the OEP to Northern Ireland.

The OEP has an important role to play alongside and in collaboration with the Committee on Climate Change in ensuring that the UK continues to drive forward ambitious action on climate change. That role is not being called into question by the amendments. Indeed, Greener UK has welcomed the amendments and their addition to the existing provisions, which

“ensure that there is no duplication and overlap”.––[Official Report, Environment Public Bill Committee, 10 March 2020; c. 74, Q116.]

The Committee on Climate Change is also supportive of both the existing measures and the Government amendments. I therefore commend Government amendments 30 and 66 and new clause 4 to the Committee, and graciously urge the hon. Member to withdraw amendment 189.

[Deidre Brock]

I thank the Minister for that brief but adequate explanation.

Environment Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Leo Docherty and Deidre Brock

Thursday 5th November 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

I beg to move amendment 190, in clause 24, page 14, line 29, at end insert—

“(g) a Scottish local authority,

(h) a Scottish housing association, or

(i) a Scottish environmental regulator.”

This amendment seeks to ensure clear reporting lines in Scotland and to ensure that the OEP’s remit does not clash with that of the Scottish regulator.

This amendment—I touched on this on Tuesday—continues the intent of amendment 188. Its aim is to ensure that Scottish public bodies do not duplicate their chain of authority, that they report to the correct bodies and that the devolved settlement around environmental protection is protected. It would basically ensure that the devolved nature of the Administration in Scotland was respected, that the reporting lines for those duties were clear and that the remit of the Office for Environmental Protection did not clash with that of the Scottish regulator.

I hope the Minister will see that muddying the waters of authority in the present way is rather unhelpful, and I hope he and his colleagues will see fit to support what would be a very reasonable addition to the Bill.

[Leo Docherty (Aldershot) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for her contribution. I would like to reassure her that the Bill respects all the devolution settlements, including the Scotland Act. Therefore, the duty to co-operate does not apply to Scottish Ministers, the Scottish Parliament or any person carrying out devolved functions, and the public authorities listed in the amendment are already excluded from the duty to co-operate to the extent that they will be carrying out devolved functions. That means that these public authorities would not be required to share any information with the OEP in relation to their devolved functions in Scotland. Therefore, it is not necessary to list them as excluded bodies for the purposes of clause 24.

I support the hon. Member’s intention to avoid overlaps with the functions of the equivalent Scottish governance body. That is why we have appropriately sought to limit the OEP’s remit to reserved matters, while avoiding any devolved matters that would appropriately be dealt with by that other body. I therefore ask the hon. Member to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Leo Docherty]

I thank hon. Members for their contributions. I agree that it is of great importance that the OEP should be able to hold public authorities to account, and that all parties should have certainty about its remit. I assure hon. Members, however, that the provisions in the Bill are sufficient to ensure both those things.

Regarding amendment 117, we have deliberately taken a broad approach to defining a public authority as

“a person carrying out any function of a public nature”,

subject to a number of specific exclusions. The same approach is used in a number of other Acts, including the Human Rights Act 1998 and, more recently, the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. It is, therefore, an approach with which the courts are familiar.

The existing definition already covers UK Ministers and Government Departments, local authorities, arm’s length bodies such as the Environment Agency, and all other bodies that carry out public functions. It is therefore unnecessary to list specific types of public authority in the Bill, as they are already captured. Furthermore, by including the term “public body” without defining it further, this amendment would introduce a lack of clarity about who and what is covered by this particular new element of the definition.

I reassure the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith that the Bill respects the devolution settlements, including the Scotland Act 1998. Scottish Ministers, the Scottish Parliament and any person carrying out devolved functions have been excluded from the remit of the OEP. The public authorities listed in amendment 191 are, therefore, already excluded from the remit of the OEP, to the extent that they are carrying out devolved functions, so it is not necessary to list them as excluded bodies for the purposes of clause 28. I support her intention of avoiding overlaps with the equivalent Scottish governance body, Environmental Standards Scotland. That is why we have appropriately sought to limit the OEP’s remit to reserved matters, while avoiding any devolved matters that would appropriately be dealt with by that body.

In conclusion, I hope that Members are reassured that the definition is fit for purpose. It both avoids overlaps with bodies carrying out devolved functions, and ensures that the OEP has oversight over all relevant public authorities. As such, I politely ask the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, to withdraw the amendment.

[Deidre Brock]

I am somewhat reassured by the Minister’s comments. He has basically given me the same assurance as he gave for amendment 190—that all the bodies covered in the amendment are already covered by references to either “(d) a devolved legislature” or “(e) the Scottish Ministers”. I am happy with that assurance and will not press amendment 191.

[Deidre Brock]

I beg to move amendment 192, in clause 29, page 17, line 5, leave out subsection (4).

This amendment would allow public bodies to report the actions of other public bodies where they are at fault.

The amendment has come about because it seems a little strange to me that public bodies would be excluded from the reporting side of the system, particularly as public bodies might be reckoned to be rather more likely to receive knowledge about breaches. If public bodies should be held to account, why is it sensible for them to not aid in holding other public bodies to account? Reports made by those carrying out public functions are not likely to be less valid, or less based on true concern, so I do not feel they should be discounted. I am keen to hear the Minister’s response, because, as I say, it seems a strange part of the Bill.

[Leo Docherty]

I thank the hon. Lady for tabling her amendment. It is of course important that the OEP be aware of potential breaches of environmental law, and the power to receive complaints is an important element of that. However, it would not be appropriate for one public authority to be able to submit a complaint to the OEP about another public authority; it would amount to one part of the government system complaining about another. There are more appropriate ways for public authorities to resolve such disputes.

Public authorities are expected to work together constructively to resolve any instances of alleged non-compliance. For example, the Government’s code of good practice is clear that Government Departments and arm’s length bodies should

“develop constructive working relationships based on trust, respect and shared values.”

Furthermore, if a public authority has a specific role in regulating other public authorities, mechanisms will already be in place to enable the relevant bodies to enforce the relevant regimes. For example, when a local authority applies to the Environment Agency for an environmental permit and is subject to permit conditions, the Environment Agency already has powers to take the necessary enforcement action under existing legislation if the local authority fails to abide by the conditions.

There are also relevant precedents for our approach, which is broadly similar to that in the Local Government Act 1974 in relation to what is now called the local government and social care ombudsman. In that Act, public authorities are also excluded from submitting complaints to the ombudsman.

I note that a person who works for a public authority would still be able to submit a complaint in a personal capacity, rather than on behalf of their organisation. As such, I hope that the hon. Member is reassured that the provision in clause 29(4) is appropriate, and ask her to withdraw the amendment.

[Deidre Brock]

I am not entirely convinced by the Minister’s response. My point about public bodies being more likely to hear of potential breaches from other public bodies still stands, but I will reflect a little more on what he has said. I will withdraw the amendment, but I might revisit it in future. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 30

Investigations