European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We can square that very simply by pointing out that, yes, of course, there are transitory arrangements for some aspects of the Northern Ireland economy, but they automatically dissolve and are terminated after four years unless it is the majority decision of the Assembly of Northern Ireland to remain in alignment with those arrangements either in whole or in part. The principle of consent is therefore at the heart of the arrangements.

Under the Bill, British farmers will escape the frequently perverse effects of the common agricultural policy; British fishermen, liberated from arcane quotas, will be free to fish in a way that is both more sensible and sustainable; and this House will be free to legislate for the highest possible standards.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Prime Minister will be well aware that four pages in the Bill address and enlarge the responsibilities of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. That is all very well and good, but there is not a single sentence in the Bill that explains the new consent process contained in the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal. I say clearly to the Prime Minister: do not take the people of Northern Ireland for fools. We are not fools. He needs to explain in detail how his new consent process will operate—in detail, please.

[The Prime Minister]

The process for consent is of course set out in detail in the unilateral declaration made between us and the Republic of Ireland. The hon. Lady will understand that it is, as I have indicated to the House, a process by which there are a small minority of economic arrangements in which Northern Ireland remains in alignment, such as sanitary and phytosanitary and manufactured goods, for four years, unless and until by a majority vote of the Stormont Assembly Northern Ireland elects to remain in alignment. Otherwise, for the vast majority of the Northern Ireland economy, Northern Ireland exits with the rest of the UK whole and entire, able to do free trade deals from the outset and participate in all the other benefits of Brexit. I hope that that point commends itself to the hon. Lady.

Prime Minister’s Statement

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

Saturday 19th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Prime Minister will be well aware of the considerable anxiety, and indeed anger, caused to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland since the publication of his Brexit deal. I would like him to take this opportunity, since he has not bothered until now, to reach out and reassure the Unionist community. I would like him to take this opportunity publicly to reassure the people in Northern Ireland that there is nothing in his deal that undermines the constitutional status of Northern Ireland, as guaranteed by the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and the consent principle. I pay tribute to the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who has given a very solemn explanation about his commitment to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland, but as a Unionist, I need to hear a British Prime Minister making that commitment to the Unionist community.

[The Prime Minister]

Of course, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I wish to reassure her that I make an absolute commitment to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland, which is inviolable and intact. It may be that she has not seen the statement from Lord Trimble, who said of the change in the agreement that we have secured:

“Whilst, previously, the people of Northern Ireland were to have an agreement imposed on them, now we have a mechanism for the consent of the people of Northern Ireland”—

and that is

“fully in accordance with…the Good Friday Agreement.”

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I cannot account for the unaccountable—I cannot account for the Leader of the Opposition’s change of mind on the EU, except that, as I observed earlier, he seems to have been captured by some of his colleagues—but I can certainly confirm to my hon. Friend that we will be leaving on 31 October, deal or no deal.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Prime Minister’s proposals prove quite clearly that he does not understand Northern Ireland. While he seems to be perfectly happy to dance to the tune of his friends in the Democratic Unionist party, he forgets, or chooses to ignore, the fact—and it is a fact—that the DUP does not represent the majority of people in Northern Ireland. The DUP campaigned for leave, along with the right hon. Gentleman, but the majority of people in Northern Ireland voted remain. The majority of people in Northern Ireland will be extremely concerned by the proposals that he tabled yesterday and has spoken about today, which introduce two borders in Northern Ireland.

I remind the Prime Minister that the people in Northern Ireland certainly do not want the UK to leave the EU without a deal. What people in Northern Ireland really want, all of them, is to continue to enjoy the peace and stability delivered by the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. I want the Prime Minister to go through the statement that he has delivered, and pinpoint for the House and the people of Northern Ireland the aspects of his proposals that guarantee peace and stability in Northern Ireland.

[The Prime Minister]

The most important thing is that we will abide by every clause and principle of the Good Friday agreement. Above all, there will be no border—there will be no hard border at all—in Northern Ireland. Most important, we will be governed by the principle of consent. I should be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss exactly what I mean, if that would be useful to her. I do accept that these proposals deserve wider circulation and wider explanation, and I should be more than happy to meet her to go through them.

Prime Minister's Update

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thought that was coming, Mr Speaker. I am certainly grateful for my hon. Friend’s support for my ambition to get Brexit done by 31 October. Apart from anything else, it will not only help to take the sting out of the current conversation and calm everybody down, but deliver the business certainty and confidence that people have been crying out for around the whole United Kingdom.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that I was shocked that he, as the Prime Minister, should take it upon himself, with his arrogance, to declare the judgment of the Supreme Court wrong. It was the Supreme Court—the highest court of the land—and the 11 judges were unanimous, but the Prime Minister has declared this evening that their decision was wrong. He has not explained the grounds, but he has declared them to be wrong. If the Prime Minister believes that, does he also believe that it is lawful for him to call another lengthy Prorogation of this Parliament? If he has that in his mind, when is he going to enlighten us as to when that Prorogation will begin?

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but I do think we need a Queen’s Speech and I do think we have a dynamic domestic agenda that we need to push forward. I will inform her, as well as the rest of the House, as soon as we have assessed the meaning of the judgment in its entirety and when it is appropriate to do so.

G7 Summit

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend puts his finger on the issue. If we fail to deliver Brexit, we risk incurring a fatal lack of trust not just in the major parties—in all parties—but in our democracy itself.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I think the Prime Minister owes the people of Northern Ireland some explanation of why he and his Government have treated the Good Friday agreement—the Belfast agreement—in such a careless and cavalier manner. That agreement has kept stability and peace in Northern Ireland since it was signed 21 years ago.

It is reported that the Crown Solicitor’s Office in Belfast has advised the Government that a no-deal Brexit would be in contravention of the Good Friday agreement, so I call upon the Prime Minister to publish today, in full—he owes that to the people of Northern Ireland, and certainly to this House—any legal advice he has received from the Crown Solicitor’s Office about how a no-deal Brexit would contravene the agreement.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady, and I know she has been a long-standing campaigner for peace in Northern Ireland. However, I must respectfully say to her that, actually, it is the backstop and the withdrawal agreement itself that undermine the balance of the Good Friday agreement because, in important matters, they give a greater preponderance to the voice of Dublin in the affairs of Northern Ireland than they do to the UK—the UK having left the EU. That is a simple fact, and I do not think it is widely enough understood. That is one of the reasons the withdrawal agreement itself is in conflict with the Good Friday agreement.

As for the advice the hon. Lady asks about, I have not seen any such advice.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Debate between Lady Hermon and Boris Johnson

Tuesday 12th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Boris Johnson (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). I have known him for many years and I do not doubt his sincerity in this matter at all. I myself had sincerely hoped that the Government would be able to make the wholly modest changes that this House urged them to make, and that there would be no risk that this country would find itself trapped in the backstop or that we would lose our democratic right to make laws for this country and pass them to a foreign entity for all time, as we are in danger of doing.

But whatever the Government tried to do, they have not, I am afraid, succeeded. Though I congratulate the Prime Minister and the Attorney General on their efforts, the result is that, like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they have sewed an apron of fig leaves that does nothing to conceal the embarrassment and indignity of the UK. As the Attorney General confirmed in his admirably honest advice, the backstop does not just divide our country in fundamental ways—it ties our hands for the future and sets us on a path to a subordinate relationship with the EU that is still, despite what we were told yesterday, clearly based on the customs union and on large parts of the single market.

[Lady Hermon]

rose—

[Boris Johnson]

I give way with pleasure to the hon. Lady.

[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful indeed to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, because it gives me an opportunity to remind him of the many opportunities that he took during the EU referendum campaign to assert that this country was going to take back control of its borders. May I just ask him whether he has ever visited South Armagh or Crossmaglen? How, with the greatest respect, does he think he is going to take back control of the border without the backstop arrangement?

[Boris Johnson]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I have certainly visited the places that she mentions—indeed, at the times of the troubles—and I can say that nobody wants those types of border controls to come back, least of all the Governments in Dublin or in London, or indeed those in Brussels; and, by the way, nobody thinks it necessary, under any circumstances, for hard border controls to return in Northern Ireland. But what I think her constituents will want is for this country to have the unilateral right of exit from the backstop, and that is not what the British people are getting out of this deal.

[Lady Hermon]

rose—

[Boris Johnson]

If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will make some progress.

I want to stress this point. I really cannot accept the repeated assertion by the Attorney General in his very powerful speech this afternoon that there is a minimal legal risk of us being trapped in the prison of the backstop, because it is now more than a year since I stood in Downing Street—in No. 10—and was told that there was a minimal legal risk that we would even have to enter the backstop. That is not a view that I believe could now be plausibly defended by the Government.