Housing and Planning Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The importance of what we are doing in the Chamber today is shown by the fact that so many of my hon. Friends are here to see us delivering on a manifesto pledge. I am just sorry that Labour Members do not think it is so important to do what is right for our country and its constitution.

As you have outlined, Mrs Laing, I am also required under Standing Orders to inform the Committee that I intend to move a further consent motion relating to England at the end of this debate. I will, however, address both consent motions now.

I draw the Committee’s attention to my written ministerial statement of 7 January, which informed the House that I had placed in the Library my Department’s analysis of the application of Standing Order No. 83L in respect of Government amendments tabled on Report.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Since so many of the clauses in the Bill have been designated as applying exclusively to England or, indeed, to England and Wales, will the Minister help the House—particularly Members who are excluded from the vote on the consent motion, if there is one—by stating what evidence he has that not a single person from Northern Ireland is a landlord in England and Wales and therefore that there is no particular Northern Ireland interest in the Bill?

[Brandon Lewis]

I will come on to that specific point in a few moments. I would, however, point out that the hon. Lady and other hon. Members were able to speak on Second Reading and on Report both last Tuesday—through to the early hours—and this afternoon, and that we touched on that very point.

I want to thank Mr Speaker for his careful consideration and certification of the Bill. I also pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House and of members of the Procedure Committee for getting us to this historic inaugural Legislative Grand Committee. I want to put on the record my thanks to the Clerks of the House for their, as ever, excellent service and advice to Mr Speaker and to my Department.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us that that was the night of the long reshuffle, so I suppose we should be grateful that any Labour Members were there. I do not wish to take up any more time.

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Since the Front Benchers have boasted—and it was a boast—that this is an historic occasion, it would help if the occasion was not flawed. To take but one example, new clause 62 is designated as applying exclusively to England. Will the Minister quickly turn to it before we proceed in order to establish whether it applies only to England, because given that it appears in the new clause, I think the word “Wales” applies to it?

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady has made a creative intervention to put her point directly to the Minister, and I think it deserves a response. All I can say to her from the SNP perspective is that we are going to see lots more issues like that. Confining the EVEL rulings to a Grand Committee means that no consequential issues can be considered by the Speaker in making his certifications. That means that many massive issues will impact on my constituents down the line, but I will not be able to represent them in those matters.

If Conservative Members think they have won and believe that this will not have anything other than a totally detrimental impact on the fortunes of the Conservative party in Scotland, they need to have another think about it. This is unworkable; this is ungovernable; this is a mess; this is unfair. This creates two classes of Members in this House, which is totally unacceptable to my hon. Friends and the Scottish National party.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I remind hon. Members—although I do not think hon. Members really need to be reminded—that if there is a Division on the consent motion for England and Wales, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote. This extends to expressing an opinion by calling out Aye or No when the Question is put or acting as a Teller—I know the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) knows that I recognise a Scottish voice when I hear one.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee consents to the following certified clauses and schedules of the Housing and Planning Bill and certified amendments made by the House to the Bill:

Clauses and schedules certified under Standing Order No. 83L(2) as relating exclusively to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence

Clauses 97, 98 and 120 to 150 of the Bill as amended in Committee (Bill 108) including any amendments made on Report;

Schedules 7 and 10 to 15 of the Bill as amended in Committee (Bill 108) including any amendments made on Report;

Amendments certified under Standing Order No. 83L(4) as relating exclusively to England and Wales

Amendments 180 and 181 made in Committee to Clause 71 of the Bill as introduced (Bill 75), which is Clause 76 of the Bill as amended in Committee (Bill 108);

Amendments 127 and 128 made in Committee to Clause 85 of the Bill as introduced (Bill 75), which is Clause 92 of the Bill as amended in Committee (Bill 108).

[Lady Hermon]

On a point of order, Madam Chairman. On a serious point of order, I am very conflicted because I do not want in any way to be critical of the Speaker and his certification, but the Speaker clearly today confirmed his provisional certification and that included reference to new clause 62 as being exclusively applicable to England. New clause 62 applies to both England and Wales. What could the Deputy Chairman advise when a certification by the Speaker—for whom I have enormous regard—appears to be flawed?

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Lady makes a perfectly reasonable point, and it is important that we consider points of order because this is a new procedure and the Procedure Committee has assured the House that it will be looking at the procedure and how it works in practice. What I can say to the hon. Lady is that Mr Speaker did make available in the Vote Office, and in other ways, several days ago his provisional decision on this matter, and there have been several days during which the hon. Lady, and indeed any other hon. Member, had an opportunity to make representations to Mr Speaker exactly along the lines that she has just done. Perhaps if this happens in future and the hon. Lady has similar concerns, she will have ample opportunity to take those concerns up with Mr Speaker before we get to this point in the proceedings.

[Lady Hermon]

Further to that point of order, Madam Chairman. I do apologise for not bringing this to the Speaker’s attention earlier, but I am bringing it to the House’s attention today. I would hate to think there might be any consequences because flawed procedure has been followed in this case. It is a very important point. Members are going to be asked to go through the Division Lobby—apart from those of us from Northern Ireland, about which I feel exceedingly resentful, as I think it is quite wrong; and I do have an interest in this Bill because my constituents who are landlords are affected by it. So today I would like Madam Chairman to give advice as to whether we should pause and postpone this historic occasion until we get the certification corrected by the Speaker.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

No, again the hon. Lady is making a perfectly reasonable point, but I think I have already answered it. The fact is that the House took the decision on 22 October that we would proceed as we are proceeding today. As I have said to the hon. Lady, if she has concerns about how matters work in practice both the Procedure Committee will look at this as the weeks go on and Mr Speaker will be pleased to hear from the hon. Lady if she has concerns the next time we come to this point in the proceedings. But now we will proceed.

The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England) (Standing Order No. 83M(4)(d)).