NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Bill

Debate between Kit Malthouse and Pauline Latham

Friday 22nd January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Kit Malthouse]

No, I do not lack confidence in people’s independence of mind. I have great admiration for my hon. Friend, who is very independent-minded and, I am sure, conducts herself extremely well as a trustee. The point is that there is a danger of group-think, and I have given a number of examples illustrating how it can come about. I am sure that happened at Kids Company.

That point is important in respect of this Bill because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset—sorry, my hon. Friend—said, the charities we are talking about here are different. They are not like other charities. People associate them in their minds with the institution with which they are connected. They are seen as part of the national health service. When I give to the Great Ormond Street Hospital Children’s Charity, I know that I am giving, at one remove, straight to the ward. I am not giving the money because the charity might spend it elsewhere. I know that I am giving it to that hospital. The two are inextricably linked.

My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset—I hope he will forgive me for constantly referring to him as right honourable, but it is only a matter of time—is absolutely right when he says that, at some point, something will go wrong. Even with Kids Company, which did not have such links, but was in receipt of public money, there were demands on the Government to do something. Indeed, the Prime Minister was on the rack to a certain extent because he had been associated with Kids Company.

[Pauline Latham]

My hon. Friend might not have been in the Chamber the other night for the debate on banking regulation, but the right hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) said that she had been prevented from becoming a member of the trustee board of a charity because she was a “politically exposed person”. Does my hon. Friend recognise that some of us will have difficulty supporting amazing charities, such as Great Ormond Street, which are not like the one he mentions?

[Kit Malthouse]

Yes. I am trying to get to a position where we can have confidence in the governance of charities, and confidence that when things go wrong, there are appropriate mechanisms for someone to step in and deal with things quickly. My point is that in the case of national health service charities—that is what people think of them as—at some point, the Secretary of State will be asked to sort out problems.

We have to remember that there are practicalities involved in this. If the Secretary of State is unable to take control of the board and replace the trustees, he or she cannot get immediate access to the bank account. They cannot get anybody to sign a mandate to allow them to control the money, or even to freeze the account to stop money flowing in or out. When this hospital pass, this UXB or unexploded bomb of a hospital charity that has behaved badly or got into trouble, perhaps through no fault of its own, lands in the lap of a Secretary of State, whoever it may be—it could be one of us here on these Benches in the future, perhaps—the inability to step in and take control will have a significant political, and indeed financial, impact. That might impact on the care that takes place on the ward.