Oral Answers to Questions

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

As ever, my hon. Friend is a great advocate for his Cleethorpes constituency. He is right that Immingham is the No. 1 port in terms of tonnage and is vital to our trade with the EU and the rest of the world. If our diaries allow, I or one of my Ministers will be delighted to visit and see at first hand the vital role Immingham plays in the transition to renewable energy.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

In December, the British Chambers of Commerce found that a staggering 97% of surveyed businesses continued to face difficulties using the trade and co-operation agreement. Despite the TCA being introduced over three years ago, businesses are still struggling to deal with the added headache that the regulations have created. If 97% of businesses still face difficulties after three years, how many years is it anticipated that it will take for these issues to be resolved?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Many of the issues that businesses have been raising with us are specific not to the TCA but to member countries. That is why Ministers and I, along with officials, go to all these countries, and we have removed many of the market access barriers, which are not specific to the TCA. The hon. Lady will know that the TCA will be up for review. If she has specific things she would like us to take to EU Trade Commissioners, we are very happy to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Goldman Sachs has found that Brexit Britain has significantly underperformed compared with other advanced economies; the result is that UK GDP is 5% lower than it would have been had we not left the European Union. Does the Secretary of State appreciate that best way to grow the economy, boost business confidence and reduce trade barriers is to rejoin to the EU?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I recommend to the hon. Lady the report produced by my Department on 31 January about the benefits of Brexit. It explains exactly what is happening with the UK economy. Claiming that GDP would have been 5% higher when we are outperforming our G7 partners is simply not credible. She wants to take us back to square one, but that is exactly the reason why people need to stick with the Conservative plan.

LGBT History Month

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Stringer, and I am grateful to the hon. Members for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) and for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) for their leadership in the debate today. It is a pleasure to speak in the annual LGBT+ History Month debate, and to reflect on the journey that has been made and also on where change still needs to come. I welcome the opportunity to speak about the positive progress that we see in a whole range of areas, but as the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington pointed out, there is no inevitability about progressive change. We can all see this playing out. We can see the statistics showing hate crimes against LGBT+ people rising, and we need to be prepared here to speak out and to speak up for their rights.

It is quite extraordinary to think that it was only 10 years ago that same-sex couples were allowed to marry, and that only came 10 years after civil partnerships were introduced, which same-sex couple could enter into. It is almost inconceivable that those changes, which I think are so overwhelmingly accepted as part and parcel of partnership and marriage, were made so very recently. I think the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) put it very well when she called for us not just to tolerate but to celebrate LGBT+ communities. It is true that we have come a long way in relatively recent times, but we have obviously been playing catch-up because change was well overdue. It is beyond time for further change, such as a ban on conversion practices, which we have heard so much about today. The SNP Scottish Government are very clear on the need to act to end conversion practices and to ensure that everyone, regardless of their identity, is protected from them. That is progress that we need to see all across these islands.

I am very sorry that I was unable to join the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) last week in the debate on his private Member’s Bill—the Conversion Therapy (Prohibition) Bill—but I saw enough to think that unfortunately this place did not come away looking particularly good. We need to be able to discuss and listen to others without some of the heat that seems to be inevitable at the moment. Unfortunately, that heat is ramped up to some extent by the U-turning, stopping and starting, and obfuscating on this topic from this Government—not this Minister—and by the desire in some quarters to polarise, demonise or to problematise, as the hon. Member for Wallasey described. It is a clearly a direction of travel that is mirrored and influenced by increasing populism and division across the globe. But we do not need to do those things, and we do not need to accept that direction of travel as inevitable. Nobody benefits from it, and it causes such significant worry and harm to LGBT communities.

That worry exists with good reason when we look at the statistics. Hate crimes based on sexual orientation are reportedly up 112% from five years ago, and hate crimes against trans people are up 186% over that same period. I was struck by what the Law Commission’s hate crime report said about how members of Governments and legislatures across the UK should not engage in “culture war” targeting of the trans community, or use their positions to stir up fear and hostility towards trans people, and that all Governments across the UK should commit to addressing the causes of rising LGBT+ hate crimes. Surely it is difficult to argue with that.

Amidst all this, it is really important that we do our best in this conversation to make sure that young people are provided with constructive and conclusive education. I am always really proud to stand up in this place and talk about the exceptional work that the Time for Inclusive Education campaign has done to deliver that inclusive education in Scottish schools. That is important and welcome to me as a mum, and I know that my views are shared by the vast majority of parents—a recent survey found that 70% of parents support the national LGBT+ inclusive education programme.

I have said before that the current situation is a far cry from my school days, and it was interesting to hear the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) reflect on his school days. It was admittedly not yesterday that I was at school, but it was really clear to me when I was that no child in my school was LGBT+. I went to a perfectly nice school, but I was at school in the 1980s, when section 28 was big news.

The hon. Member for Wallasey spoke powerfully about the hugely difficult times in the 1980s and the terrible impact they had on people. I, too, looked back to what was being said at that time, and it is very easy to see why people felt that they should keep their identities hidden. Margaret Thatcher said in her 1986 Conservative party conference speech that

“children are being cheated of a sound start in life”

due to

“being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay.”

It is quite hard to read and say that now. Of course gay people have an inalienable right to be gay—because they are gay. In my school, the truth of course was that many pupils were gay. There were LGBT+ pupils in the school, but they felt they needed to keep that to themselves and move on in their lives, and move on in time, before making that known. We cannot go backwards, to a time when being LGBT+ was some kind of taboo—how can it be taboo to be yourself? I think the attitudes of young people will be instrumental in making sure that that rowing back, which some people would unfortunately like to see, will not happen.

I want to mention someone who is a real inspiration to young people, and to some of us who are a bit older as well—someone who is a change maker and very much to be admired. In September 2022, Zander Murray became the first senior Scottish footballer to come out as gay. He currently plays for Bonnyrigg Rose, a professional club in Scottish League Two, and he is a bit of a goal-scoring machine. He is now the first openly gay player in Scottish football since Justin Fashanu.

Since he has come out, Zander has been really passionate about and committed to being a role model to the sporting community, and to empowering young people—particularly footballers—to be their true authentic selves. That is incredibly powerful and important. To quote Zander:

“Whilst growing up, unfortunately I felt my life in football and my sexuality could not coexist. I felt that I needed to keep it hidden and fight against it for years which resulted in numerous missed opportunities and internal struggle. Fortunately, I am now at peace with myself and more importantly I have found an amazing community that I want to stand up for and be an active ally for. It is now really important that I play my part to ensure no one experiences what I did and that all young LGBT+ people know that football and any other sport is a place where they can thrive.”

That is surely a sentiment that all of us would agree with.

Zander is clearly making a huge difference. He is retiring at the end of this season, and I have no doubt that he will continue to make a positive difference and be a really important voice in this conversation. We all need to engage in that conversation a great deal more—not just the people in this Chamber, who I know do so with good will and enthusiasm at all times. We need a much broader conversation that people such as Zander will be able to inspire others to take part in.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Stuart Andrew)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I, too, thank my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) and the hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) for securing the debate, which is an important one for so many reasons. For too long, the history of LGBT people’s lives, their stories and their love were hidden. The achievements of people, including the advancements and breakthroughs that they made, were recorded but never acknowledged or celebrated, simply because they were LGBT.

We have had some really thoughtful contributions this afternoon. In opening the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington rightly talked about the international changes that have happened —some good; some really very worrying indeed—and how we cannot take progress for granted. The hon. Member for Wallasey agreed, reminding us that we need to be mindful of the risks that exist and that by fighting together we can make sure that progress continues to be made.

The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) talked about Pride events in Wales and how things are different today, including in villages. As someone who grew up on the Isle of Anglesey back in the 1970s and 1980s, I remember that if you wanted to go to a gay club, you had to travel miles into Llandudno on the first Monday of the month. It really has been interesting to listen to the debate, although one of the most shocking things I heard was that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) was born in 1990, which makes me feel incredibly old.

As the hon. Member for Wallasey said, it is important for us as LGBT people to remember our past and understand it, to celebrate our present and to create our future. Those are the principles of LGBT History Month, and they are the principles that I and many people here in Parliament are proud to stand up for today, in a House that has more LGBT people than ever before.

We have rightly remembered many of the battles for rights and the fact that persistence was often the way to ensure things happened. Whether it be in respect of section 28, the gender recognition certificate, the age of consent or equal marriage, the remark by the hon. Member for Wallasey about the sky not falling in was very true indeed. In fact, I remember that after the equal marriage debate people were very quickly boasting that they had been to a gay wedding, and celebrating that fact.

The theme for LGBT History Month this year is the celebration of the contributions made by LGBT people in the fields of medicine and healthcare. We are asked to look “under the scope” and recognise the invaluable contributions of LGBT people across the medical and healthcare sectors—including in our world-renowned NHS—which have often been overlooked, so for a moment I will reflect on that.

The UK has long been known for trailblazing healthcare professionals, and I am proud that this debate gives me a chance to pay tribute to some of those trailblazers who were LGBT. Dr Sophia Jex-Blake was a 19th-century Scottish physician who was most widely known as Scotland’s first ever practising female doctor, and for her pivotal role as a member of the Edinburgh Seven. Sophia devoted her life to the advancement of women’s rights in the field of medicine and helped to lead the campaign to secure women’s access to university education. After qualifying as a doctor, she helped to found two medical schools for women, in London and Edinburgh, at a time when medical schools were training only men.

Sophia retired to Sussex in 1899, where she moved in with Dr Margaret Todd, a fellow physician who many believe was her partner. Sophia was never openly a lesbian, but upon her death Margaret published Sophia’s private musings, many of which confessed her love for women.

Another extraordinary and hidden story is the life of Sir Ewan Forbes. On the surface, his life might appear to be one of genericity. Born into an aristocratic family in Aberdeenshire, Ewan graduated as a doctor in his early 30s and began practising as a local GP. Not long afterwards, he married Isabella Mitchell. From a young age, Ewan was open about his transgender identity, at a time when being trans was not understood and certainly was not socially acceptable. Although registered female at birth, Ewan recognised that his legal sex was not his true self and, with the support of his family, was believed to have undergone pioneering gender-affirming care.

Upon marrying his wife, Ewan sought to make the marriage legal by seeking legal gender recognition in 1952. Although a taboo topic at the time, it was relatively smoothly awarded upon that request. However, Ewan’s legal recognition was later questioned when his older brother died and he was set to inherit the fortune and become a baron. At the time, this was seen as scandalous, as many did not accept the legal gender recognition. Ewan took the case to the Scottish Court of Session and won. Despite the case being conducted in secrecy, it marked a pivotal moment in transgender rights. The fascinating details of Ewan’s life were recently recorded in a book, “The Hidden Case of Ewan Forbes”, which is a much-recommended read.

As others have said today, we should think not just about the past, but the future, and the present day. That gives me an opportunity to pay tribute to my colleague, Dr Michael Brady. Michael is a sexual health and HIV consultant at King’s College Hospital, as well as NHS England’s first ever national adviser for LGBT health, where he leads work to tackle health inequalities faced by the LGBT community.

Michael has long worked for better healthcare for LGBT people. Alongside his role as national LGBT health adviser, Michael spent 15 years as the medical director at the Terrence Higgins Trust. He played a huge role in advocating for the national roll-out of pre-exposure prophylaxis—PrEP—the HIV prevention drug. He consistently strives to improve healthcare provision and outcomes for LGBT people in his everyday role. I pay tribute to all the others we could mention under the theme of LGBT History Month.

I come on to some of the other points raised today, including the international picture. I absolutely recognise the great strides that many countries have made—colleagues have raised many important points—but, clearly, there are some awful things still happening. As many have mentioned, the laws in Uganda, Ghana, Hungary and Russia are extremely concerning.

I assure hon. Members that, as a Government, we continue to raise these issues whenever we have the opportunity. The Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office has a new five-year, £40 million LGBT rights programme. That programme will hopefully transform the lives of millions of LGBT people around the world, by reducing the violence and discrimination that they experience, and by offering support to those who campaign, sometimes very bravely in hostile environments.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am interested in the Minister’s point about the situation in different countries overseas. What are his reflections on the situation for LGBT+ people in Rwanda? Is he able to tell us his thoughts in relation to his Government’s plans there?

[Stuart Andrew]

My view is very clear. Wherever there are challenges for LGBT people, we have a duty to raise them at every point. That is not just in Rwanda. There are lots of other countries in which we have lots of different agreements. It is important to raise the issues, even with good friends of ours, when we think that they are making decisions that are not in the best interests of the community that we all want to support.

International Women’s Day: Language in Politics

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am pleased to follow all these excellent speeches. It has been a worthwhile debate, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller) for bringing it here today.

Debating the language that is used in politics is important, particularly as we approach an election. As we have heard, we cannot debate that without speaking about the reality of the impact of the language that is used about us and to us. The language in the political sphere has a profound impact on women in politics now and on those who may or may not want to jump into what is sometimes just a swamp. That sounds a bit dramatic, but it is not really. Although it is the biggest privilege to represent our communities—I am sure we all feel that very sincerely—the challenge is the discourse, including in here, the language and the abuse. To hear her talking, I think the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) the Member for Swansea must be using my social media. Unfortunately, we all also recognise the targeted harassment and security concerns that go along with some of this.

Important research by the Fawcett Society points out that the safety and security of elected representatives, and the issues around that, are highly gendered. The fact is that we are not representative. Women make up more than half the population, but only 34% of MPs. We need to do better there. I applaud the new Scottish Government Cabinet. It has been gender balanced for many years now, but the new Cabinet is, I think, 70% female. That is a significant and important step. It is welcome to see all these capable women taking their places.

It is telling that the debate today follows on from statements on the security of elected representatives and on the Angiolini inquiry into the circumstances around the murder of Sarah Everard. Although I have been glad to participate in the last few International Women’s Day debates, there is an undercurrent, which was brought into stark focus again today by the Angiolini inquiry report. We need to reflect on the awful reality of where the normalisation of behaviours, and the amplification of language and attitudes, can lead to. My very deep sympathies are with the family of Sarah Everard. They are also with the family of Emma Caldwell, whose killer was sentenced yesterday to 36 years’ imprisonment for her murder in 2005. Their ordeal has been so awful. They have waited so long for answers, but those answers, while very important, will not bring their much-loved Emma back. Emma was reportedly someone with many friends, who, despite having a very difficult time in life, was appreciated, valued and loved. I appreciate any and all headlines that manage something that should not be so difficult: when talking about Emma, to use her name and not just describe her as “sex worker”—Sky News, you must do better. I do hope that Emma’s very brave family can now find peace.

Every hon. Member who has spoken today has, unsurprisingly, noted the impact of online abuse on their participation in democracy. The right hon. Member for Basingstoke eloquently pointed out that robust debate is not the same as abuse. We could be here all day—probably all week or more—if we started down the road of giving examples that are far from even pretending to be debate. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) was right to say that what starts in fringe spaces does not end there.

The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) spoke well about language. There is our language here— I am thinking of the recent remarks by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson), not made in this Chamber, but the context was that of an MP speaking. That was a powerful and unfortunate example of the power of language. What we say and how we say it does not just reflect on or influence us, but enables people—men, mainly—to abuse women, including not only politicians, but other women who have the audacity to have opinions and to want to express them. That is regrettable, because of the likely impact of turning women off politics and the democratic process. Glimmer of light and all that, though: I was at the St Ninian’s High School careers fair a couple of weeks ago, and the number of powerful, articulate and smart young women interested in careers in democracy, politics, research and so on was heart- warming. I wish them all every success.

There is space to welcome some positives, but I will touch on some other women we need to mention before I close, not least the women in the middle east. We know about the awful and disproportionate impact on women, and that is horribly clear as we watch with horror what is unfolding there: the Israeli women caught up in the Hamas terror attack, the hostages and their families—it is impossible to imagine how they are coping; and the women in Gaza dealing with unimaginable things—with the death, destruction, privations that we cannot begin to imagine, and childbirth without hospitals or medical facilities, these women are suffering beyond belief.

I would like to end on a more upbeat note and to speak about the women of East Renfrewshire who do so much good. I do not have time to speak about many of these brilliant women, but I would like mention the women in my office team, Carolyn, Nix, Freya, Katie and Sampurna, who all deliver every day for our community—I am fortunate to work with them—and my East Renfrewshire councillor colleagues, Councillors Angela Convery, Caroline Bamforth and Annette Ireland, who are all women of substance and hugely committed to improving their communities.

I must also mention two special women commemorated just last week at the 20th anniversary event of the Auchenback Resource Centre. They are memorialised on lovely benches that sit outside the front of the centre. I think that the House would want to join me in reflecting on the great work that Rita Connelly and Irene Simpson did for the people of Auchenback and on how much of a difference those powerful women made to the people who lived in their area. That is a useful point at which to conclude. We all understand that this is a challenging time, but we must ensure that as well as pointing out the difficulties and challenges, we celebrate powerful women like these, who make a real difference.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, I remind Members again that if they are going to refer to other Members, they should notify them. Criticism of other hon. Members should only be on a substantive motion.

Post Office Board and Governance

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question and for representing her constituents so effectively. I am keen to have continued conversation with her. All the schemes that have been established thus far require a contractual relationship between the Post Office and the individual, and I know that was not the case for her constituent. A number of Members of this House have addressed the issue, and we will continue to look at it.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Whether we are talking about my constituent Roger, a former postmaster whose case certainly needs review, constituents in communities such as Clarkston and Neilston, who have experienced the most recent post office closures in East Renfrewshire, or the brilliant postmasters operating locally, none of them deserves this mess. This is turning into a regrettable circus to all looking in from the outside. What assurances can the Minister give me today that that will not be allowed to divert or distract from a genuine focus on the swiftest possible resolution, and on delivering a sustainable future for the Post Office?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for making that point and for representing her constituents so well. Yes, absolutely, we understand that this is distracting, or could distract, from work to ensure not just that we make right the wrongs of the past, but that the Post Office has a strong future, as she put it. I totally agree. We think that the Post Office does have a strong future. Revenue streams have been affected by changes in how and where people acquire certain things or access certain services, but the banking framework—we encourage the Post Office to be more ambitious in its negotiations with the banks on the remuneration that flows from the framework to postmasters—and the parcel hubs are an opportunity for the future. We believe that the Post Office has a strong brand and strong future. We are keen to support its efforts to ensure that the future is bright for all postmasters.

Draft Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories and Saving Provision) Order 2023

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2024 General Committees

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute, Mrs Murray. I appreciate what you said about the scope of the instrument.

I start by reflecting on what the Minister said. Like the hon. Member for Oxford East, I appreciated the tone in which he delivered his opening remarks. He spoke about the need to make this important update, but we may differ on some of the detail.

The draft statutory instrument states:

“the Secretary of State has consulted the Scottish Ministers and the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland.”

With regard to Scotland, it is appropriate to point out the significant cross-party work done in this area, and the importance of this place respecting the democratic rights of the elected Scottish Parliament.

Looking at the detail, I think the direction of travel is disappointing. We are not looking forward in a positive way—that could be open to the Government—to simplifying things and improving lives. There are significant questions, a number of which have already been put, about the seemingly urgent need to examine the list after such a long time and with no particular date for future reference.

The Minister said that the impact on transgender people is minimal; he also said that it would not be right to make the process easier. I would be keen to hear a bit more from him on why he made those statements. I am not sure that either is true; the situation is certainly not as black and white as that.

I will not rehearse all the challenges in logic in the draft instrument, but the point about someone from Denmark who is currently recognised not being recognised in future is well made. This is confused and confusing for us; how much more so will it be for people who are directly impacted and potentially very concerned about it? It is disappointing that we are having this bit of the conversation again and failing to look at the needs of the people who are directly impacted, who already face such significant challenges.

We heard about the chaotic way in which a lot of this business is conducted, which does no good to those impacted or to us. That confusion extends to the logic underlying the list of countries that are recognised or not recognised which, again, will impact on individuals. I am keen to hear more about that and about the underlying data on which the decisions have been based—it is far from clear.

This is all disappointing and unhelpfully cloaked in very challenging bombast from those on the Government Front Bench. I hope we do not see that today; instead, I hope the Minister will tell us more about the detail, the logic and the need to support people who are directly impacted, and about where the data underlying his assessment of the equality impact lies in all of that.

Post Office Ltd

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am happy to look into any cases that the hon. Gentleman refers to. There are clear set criteria: the Post Office has to maintain 11,500 branches nationwide, and 99% of the population has to be within three miles of a post office. The Post Office is maintaining its requirements under those criteria, but I am very happy to talk to the hon. Gentleman about the issue. Of course, we are looking at how to ensure that the network of individual post offices is sustained over the long term with new revenue streams, including through the access to cash legislation that the Government have put in place and things like parcel hubs. We think there is a bright future for the Post Office, but I am very keen to work with the hon. Gentleman to make sure of that in his particular cases.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I recently raised serious concerns with the Minister that the UK Government are not putting enough effort into making sure that post offices have a sustainable future—something that was of concern before the ITV drama shone a light on this issue. It is a challenge, and I do not feel that I really got an answer, so I am coming back to the topic again: we really need to know that we have a clear, proper plan for ensuring that there is no further deterioration of the network and to help build it back up. People in places like Neilston in my constituency, whose post office closed two weeks ago, or Clarkston, whose post office closed on Saturday, need those services. Those closures are billed as temporary, but they are only temporary if someone has the confidence to take up the opportunity to be a postmaster—who would feel that way now? What is the Minister’s plan to address the issue and make sure we have post office services for all our communities?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I agree with the hon. Lady. We need sustainable post offices, and that is about revenue. There have been changes in consumer habits and business levels, which have caused difficulties for postmasters. As I said, the Government have legislated for access for cash, which is a new opportunity for post offices. The banking framework delivers more revenue into those post office branches; we are keen to see that enhanced and for the Post Office to be more ambitious about that relationship, with that money flowing straight into the profit and loss accounts of individual postmasters’ branches. There are many other opportunities, including parcel hubs and foreign exchange. I am happy to discuss the matter offline, if that would be helpful.

Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend is right to point out the nature of the public service provided by sub-postmasters. The great passion and the store set by sub-postmasters, such as Jo Hamilton, about their role in the community and the service they provided to that community came across loud and clear in the ITV broadcast. It was not just about losing a job, but about losing their place in the community, so my hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that.

It is important to resolve these situations quickly now, for the reputation of the Post Office, overturning convictions and getting compensation out of the door to everyone affected by the scandal, and we are working towards that every day. The post office network is still revered across the country, so I believe it still has a strong reputation at an individual level, but we must make the network more sustainable and viable. If the network is more lucrative, that will attract more people into becoming sub-postmasters. We are working on that all the time, through initiatives such as the banking framework and other opportunities.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Many constituents have contacted me looking for swift and straightforward action. I am interested in what the Minister has outlined, but it will be important to see further flesh on the bones as we progress, and very quickly. I would like to hear more from him about how we can best deal with those hard-to-reach cases, such as people who may have walked away absolutely scunnered and significantly out of pocket, who may not come forward without the concerted action that they deserve.

The protracted nature of the issue has dampened people’s enthusiasm for taking on a post office—we cannot shy away from that and our communities deserve that we do not do so. In my constituency, the post office in Neilston will close on Saturday in what is known as a “temporary closure”, but it is only temporary if someone will come forward to take it on. Too many communities in East Renfrewshire and further afield do not have post offices, which are essential. I take on board what the Minister has said, but what more can be done, over and above what he has set out? Much more is needed to make sure that people have the confidence to take on the post offices that our communities need so much.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. She is right that we need to make the compensation schemes and the overturning of convictions swifter and more straightforward, and she is right to point to the fact that some people are reluctant to come forward in the first place. We are keen to deliver a solution that does not require sub-postmasters to come forward in order for us to overturn a conviction, as has been called for by Members of this House. We have been looking at that and we are working on it right now.

I represent a rural constituency and the Government provide significant financial support of £50 million a year for rural post offices. We are determined to restore the reputation of post offices through this work and make them more financially stable generally, by increasing the remuneration opportunities for postmasters. We think that is the route that will ensure people will come forward and run post offices in rural locations, which is as important to me as it is to the hon. Lady.

Gender Recognition

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement, although I would have welcomed a good deal more detail. I do not know whether it is because the UK Government have been missing in action on their own commitment to ban conversion therapy for the last five years, but they seem much more interested in culture wars than in looking after the rights of some of the most vulnerable people. Of course, this is the same UK Government who are intent on blocking the democratic will, expressed across parties, of the Scottish Parliament. Again, they seem to be more interested in constitutional shenanigans than in human rights.

The Minister talked about unintended consequences. Has she undertaken an impact assessment of the impact of this change on the safety, health and wellbeing of those affected? What conversations has she had with international counterparts, and what specific evidence did she receive ahead of the change that made her decide to remove these named territories? Can she tell us exactly what will happen to those already living here, and living under their new gender, who come from the places that she is now removing from the list? Can she say where this leaves the motion of reciprocal arrangements? What of those from the UK who are living elsewhere? Does she recognise that the UK is travelling rapidly backwards on the rights of LGBT people and that this decision is very much out of step with other progressive countries around the world? What consideration has she given to the UK’s international reputation?

From sending vulnerable refugees to Rwanda, placing barriers in front of care workers who want to come to the UK and now this, we can see the dearth of compassion at the heart of the UK Government writ large. We have all heard the reports that the Conservative party intends to fight the general election on the trans debate and culture wars, but nobody’s identity should be in question. As the Minister herself said, nobody’s identity should be used as a political football. We need to stop that. She needs to reflect and she needs to change tack.

[Kemi Badenoch]

I completely disagree with the hon. Lady. She talks about our using this issue as a culture wars football, yet the Labour Opposition spokesperson says that this is the first time that she has heard us say anything about this in the House. Surely both cannot be true. I think it is extraordinary that she is telling us that we are not compassionate. It is her Government in Scotland who were allowing rapists to be housed in women’s prisons while using self-identity as a cover, so I will not accept that. We are the ones who are thinking about women’s rights. We are the ones who are thinking about safeguarding. We are the ones who are thinking about vulnerability.

The hon. Lady asks me about reciprocal arrangements. The fact is that our system is a lot more rigorous, so there is no reason for others to stop accepting our certificates because they have not changed. It is because other countries have changed their process that we are updating this policy. We cannot have a situation where there are rules for people in this country and where we allow people from other countries with different rules to be able to access things that people in the UK cannot access. This is about equality before the law. This is about parity. Reciprocal arrangements will be fine. She also asked about people already living here. This is not retrospective legislation, so it will not impact people who are already here. We are just making it clear: self-ID is not something that this Government support. We do not believe that this is something that people should just declare, because that creates the very same problems that she saw in Scotland in the Isla Bryson case, with rapists going into women’s prisons. We will not allow that to happen on this Government’s watch.

Conversion Practices

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Fovargue. I want to start by thanking the hon. Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford), who opened this debate extremely powerfully. The way he brought testimonies right to the forefront of his contribution was very moving and thought-provoking. I heard what he said about Sienna, who described being beaten as part of the conversion therapy that was forced on her. She described putting on a façade in an attempt at self-preservation and the horrific personal impact.

I also pay tribute to the excellent speech by the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi). She made some very powerful points from the standpoint of her faith, and that is something we should all take full account of. She described her worry for those in this situation who are plagued by harm and suicidal thoughts, and pointed out the damage she could see because of the delay and inaction from this UK Government.

We have to be clear: conversion practices should have no place in our society. They are harmful and discriminatory. Yet, in this place—and I say this with absolutely no intent to criticise the Minister, who I think feels very strongly about this—the UK Government are all over the place. The SNP Government in Scotland remain committed to banning these harmful practices, as far as that is possible within their devolved competence.

However, it is not just the SNP that expresses that view and oppose these practices. I have heard from Humanists UK, which says that conversion therapy causes lasting harm to people—I think that is true. Stonewall has pointed out that there have been five years, five months and three days of unkept commitments on this issue by the UK Government, and I look to the Minister to respond to that. The British Psychological Society has made its views on the issue clear. The Church of Scotland passed a motion at its general assembly calling for a ban.

The Royal College of Nursing has said that it is opposed to all forms of so-called “conversion therapy”—so-called is a sensible way to put it, because this is no therapy; let us be realistic about that—based on sexual orientation or gender identity. At its congress last year, members voted overwhelmingly to support a full ban on conversion practices in all four UK nations and they called for an LGBTQ+ inclusive ban on all forms of conversion practices.

[Keir Mather (Selby and Ainsty) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the timing and delay by the Government. As an LGBT young person, I feel genuinely privileged that I have not had to live through the scourge of section 28 or any of the other phases that colleagues in this room today have so nobly resisted in the past. However, does she agree that that compels us to ban the appalling practice of conversion therapy today for young people, who are trapped in a form of living hell that we have a power in this place to alleviate?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that contribution and I agree; that is our job. It is one that we need to take seriously and we really need to get a move on with it. It is unforgivable for it to have been strung out so long.

Going back to the people and organisations with significant knowledge who have commented on this issue, the British Medical Association has long opposed what it also says is so-called conversion therapy, believing that it must be banned in its entirety. It also points out that the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), first committed to banning conversion practices back in 2018. Again, we have that timeline. The BMA suggests that any proposals that are brought forward to ban these practices must extend to transgender and non-binary people. It points out that the UK Government’s own analysis found that conversion therapies can result in negative mental health impacts, including depression and suicidal thoughts.

The BMA also points out that, given that transgender people are already most vulnerable to being subjected to conversion practices, with one in seven of them reporting that they have been offered or had conversion therapy, it is vital that any ban extends to gender identity. In addition, it points out that the UK Government previously cited legal complexity as justification for their decision to exclude gender identity from legislation, but says that conversion practices for sexual orientation and gender identity can be intrinsically linked, meaning that excluding conversion practices that target gender identity from the ban would in practice weaken any attempt to implement a ban.

These are people and organisations that are coming at this issue from a position of professional knowledge, or even professional expertise. We should listen to them. However, the UK Government are not doing that. In 2018, in their LGBT action plan the UK Government made a commitment to:

“bring forward proposals to end the practice of conversion therapy in the UK”.

In 2021, the UK Government’s Queen’s Speech also included a commitment to bring forward measures to ban conversion therapy. Then, they ran a consultation on banning conversion therapy, which extended from October 2021 to February 2022. They have yet to publish their response to that consultation. They said that a draft Bill would subsequently be prepared for spring 2022. Then, in spring 2022, ITV reported that the UK Government no longer planned to introduce legislation to ban LGBTQ conversion therapy. However, after a huge media furore—it could even be reasonably described as fury—sparked by some Conservative Members, the UK Government made a screeching U-turn, saying that they would indeed introduce a ban.

All of that having happened, we are still no further forward. We are still in the same place, where nobody really knows what is going to happen. And it is not because we have not sought to find out. I had a look back at some of the questions that have been put to the UK Government. Way back in May of this year, the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) asked the Minister what plans the Government had for pre-legislative scrutiny of its ban on conversion practices. In July, the Minister said that the Government would “shortly”—I think that we are stretching the definition—publish a draft Bill. If we go a little bit further forward, I asked the Minister, on 19 September, what plans were in place to publish a draft Bill. The Minister answered:

“No one in this country should be harmed or harassed for who they are”—

I agree—

“and attempts at so-called ‘conversion therapy’ are abhorrent.”

Again, I agree. He finished by saying:

“That is why we are carefully considering this very complex issue. We will be setting out further details on this in due course”.

I say to the Minister that “in due course” should not be five years.

It is not just me who has been asking. The same answer has been given to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn), my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) and the hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson), who also referred to the volume of written questions and contributions on this issue. Those are not the only hon. Members; I just did not want to spend all of my contribution making a list.

I do not blame the Minister for this situation—I believe that he feels very deeply about this—but I say to him that we need action. We cannot carry on like this. It is deeply and grossly unfair. There is no credible evidence to suggest that conversion practices can change someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity—not that we should wish to do that—but there is very credible evidence to tell us that these things cause significant harm. Nobody’s identity should be up for debate and no one’s identity should be treated as a political football, but I am afraid that that is what the UK Government are doing; they are diminishing people’s rights because they see it as being politically expedient to do so. That is unforgiveable. I would like to hear from the Minister about what is going to happen, how it can be that all of the commitments that we have heard have fallen by the wayside, what he thinks this means for the safeguarding for people who are in that most vulnerable of positions and how he thinks this can be remedied and rectified.

I want to re-emphasise the point that neither should we nor can we change who people are. It is cynically damaging and simply wrong that the UK Government have very deliberately put the brakes on this; it will never work. I will finish where the hon. Member for Bury South ended, by saying that people simply are who they are. They are worthy of respect. The need for a ban is greater than it ever was, and I look forward to hearing how the Minister thinks that we can go forward.

Section 28 Repeal: 20th Anniversary

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Sharma. I am very happy to have the opportunity to speak in this important debate, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) for bringing it forward and for sharing his own experience. Even though I was an adult at the time and do remember it, it is almost impossible to think that, only 27 years ago, he had the experience that he outlined as a candidate in an election—it is horrific, and it is probably difficult to imagine because it is so horrific. That was not very long ago, and I am grateful that we are not in that place any more; the hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) obviously had a very different reality, and we can all applaud that.

We need to think back to how things were and to remember that it would, unfortunately, be very easy to find ourselves in that position again. The right hon. Member for Exeter talked about LGBT people simply asking for the same human rights as others and about how that caused a bit of a furore. Again, that is incredible, and it is difficult for us to comprehend. It is not much to ask, is it, that people should have the human rights that we all take for granted? That, however, is not what happened at the time, and public attitudes went into a swift reverse.

From listening to the other contributions, it seems that quite a lot of us in the Chamber are of a reasonably similar vintage. I have said before that there were no gay people at my school; obviously, there were, but it was not okay for anybody to say that at the time. That is a terrible thing. It is very different now, and my own children have a very different experience at their school. The public outlook, the outlook among young people and the way we talk about these things is very different. Not so long ago, that would have been impossible, and it would have been absolutely out of the question for their experience to have been anybody’s reality.

I think the statistic is that 75% of the public surveyed at the time said that it was “mostly or always wrong” to be gay. That is a pretty astonishing statement for people to be agreeing with in such numbers. We heard about the memorable episode of the storming of the news studio; I was watching the television that night—I was a schoolgirl—and it really did make an impression on me. This issue was not talked about, and we did not hear about it or really know what was going on—but we certainly did after that happened. I am not suggesting that we all go and storm news studios—not just now—but I am pointing out that it was very difficult for people to get into the news agenda and into the media to explain what these changes meant in reality. Again, I suspect that that is quite difficult for us to comprehend now.

We know that section 28 was never used to prosecute anyone, but it none the less caused horrendous harm, but I am worried about the way these issues can still cause people significant harm. I know that the Minister responding is very thoughtful on these issues, and I appreciate that we have travelled a distance, but I worry about some of the issues the right hon. Member for Exeter talked about, such as conversion therapy and gender recognition. It is very unedifying to think that deliberate culture wars and constitutional game playing can sometimes be fostered on some of these issues, which should not be played with like that—people’s lives are affected when politicians behave that way. The hon. Member for Bridgend (Dr Wallis) eloquently pointed out that, whoever a person is and whatever their views, it is never acceptable to abuse others. If we take that thought as widely as possible when discussing these issues, we will all be in a better place and better able to make sensible progress.

Like my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), I am really proud that the repeal of section 28 was one of the first actions of the newly devolved Scottish Parliament. It is incredibly powerful to know that, because at the time we were in a very different place.

I looked at some interesting information from ASLEF, and one of the statements it made really struck me:

“In this 21st century, there was still a piece of legislation that made it illegal for any local authority department—including schools—to say it was okay to be lesbian or gay.”

Members should think about that: that was almost yesterday—it is a really short time since that changed. I also found a quote in the ASLEF information from someone who had been badly impacted. He said that he was made to feel he was “abnormal and inferior” and that he had been left with mental scars that he would carry forever. This issue has had a significant and profound impact on people.

It is important that we have noted that this all happened when the AIDS epidemic was all over the television—I am sure we all remember the public information films. Every single household got one of those “Don’t die of ignorance” leaflets. That all fed in, in a very unfortunate and deliberate way, to the terrible narrative the public were fed, stigmatising people with HIV and AIDS and promoting hatred of people who were gay or lesbian.

[Mr Bradshaw]

The hon. Lady just touched on an important point, which I omitted from my speech for time reasons. One of the great damages caused by section 28 at the time of the AIDS pandemic was that it prevented schools from giving vital public health information to young people about sexual relationships. That was probably the most heinous impact of it, because it had life and death consequences.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. The impact that that had, including on the wellbeing of young people, should not be underestimated. There was absolutely no way that schools could possibly deal with homophobic bullying, because they were not able to deal with this issue at all. From whatever angle you look at the wellbeing of young people, there was a huge issue, and its impact continues to this day. We should not pretend that no homophobic bullying goes on now, but we are in a very different climate, and it is at least possible to deal with it. That is profoundly important.

I would like to talk a bit about education and the “Time for Inclusive Education” campaign, which is a very positive education initiative in Scotland. It is vital that all our young people are afforded the opportunity to have proper, appropriate and wide-ranging inclusive education. It is part of who they are, and part of who everyone in the community is, that they will have relationships, and all those relationships need to have a grounding in being safe, being well and looking after one another. If we exclude parts of our young people’s communities from that, we are not doing the right job, because there is no place for homophobia, biphobia, transphobia or any other kind of bigotry in our schools—or anywhere else in society, for that matter. I therefore very much applaud the TIE campaign. I note that the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) talked about his children’s attitudes to LGBT education; we are in a different place, and their world outlook is very different from the outlook he experienced when he was at school. That is very much my experience as well.

Some of the information I saw from the Law Society was very interesting. It was fascinating to look at some of the challenges its members had pointed out in terms of the impact the regulations had on their mental health and their professional development. This issue followed people beyond school and caused significant fear among many people about the impact it could have on their jobs, their family and their friendships, because it enabled the atmosphere to be so toxic. As we look at the way things are now and at how things have moved on, it is certainly to be applauded that we are in a very different place. It is important for all political parties to realise that we need to be clear and to be strong on these issues, and I am very proud of my party for taking a strong line on them. We need to have equality and we need to work for that.

Although we have that progress to be proud of, I do have concerns. Some of the narratives and some of the storm clouds that are gathering should cause us to worry. It is our job in Parliament to speak up and speak out to make sure we do not allow troubling and hateful attitudes to take hold. Although I am pleased with where we are, I would be grateful to hear where the Minister thinks we are. I am also keen to hear where he thinks the Conservative party is going on conversion practices and whether he appreciates the responsibility all of us here have to speak out without fear or favour.