Universal Credit Roll-out

Kevin Hollinrake Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

The hon. Lady said earlier that the up-front payment is, in her words, a loan. If it was not a loan, it would increase the overall quantum of benefit paid to recipients. Is that what she is proposing?

[Debbie Abrahams]

I will say exactly what I am proposing very shortly.

If the Government’s position is that Opposition day debate motions should have no binding effect on the actions of the Government, it fundamentally alters the relationship and balance of power between the Executive and Parliament. It would mean that apart from votes on legislation and matters of confidence, the Government could ignore the decisions and will of Parliament. This is very dangerous ground, and the situation needs to be seen in the context of the blatant power grab by the Executive that we witnessed on Second Reading of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill last month.

--- Later in debate ---

[Debbie Abrahams]

Absolutely. Surely what is happening is not right, so we must stop this.

I will now make some progress, although I will take more interventions later. People might not have kept up with the hundreds of stories that we have heard from colleagues on both sides of the House, but we must make sure that the Government’s flagship programme is amended to take account of the real hardship that people are experiencing. We have heard about that hardship not just from claimants, but from charities that deal with claimants, as well as many other organisations.

There are three key issues with universal credit: the programme’s design flaws, which have been there from the outset, as I mentioned last week; the cuts that were introduced in 2015; and various implementation failures. First, I will talk about the programme’s flaws. The six-week wait before new claimants receive any payment is particularly draconian, and it is having real impacts. Four weeks of the waiting period are to provide that universal credit can be backdated, but an additional week’s wait was added as policy, and claimants must wait a further week for their payment to arrive. That is believed to be one of the primary drivers of the rise in debt and arrears.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Lady talks about a six-week delay before any payments are received, but she will be aware that up-front payments are made available at the initial stage, so does she accept that that is not quite the case?

[Debbie Abrahams]

No, I do not.

It is so important to stress that half of those in rent arrears under universal credit entered arrears after making a claim. We know that one in four is waiting more than six weeks, and one in 10 is waiting more than 10 weeks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Lady says there is mayhem. In my area, universal credit was rolled out 15 months ago, and although there are undoubtedly some problems, it is certainly not mayhem, and the measures introduced by the Government in recent weeks will fix the vast majority of the problems. So may I give the hon. Lady, and hopefully her constituents, the comfort that this will not be mayhem?

[Carolyn Harris]

I do not agree, and I can give examples from the summer when there was mayhem, even before this system came into operation.

How can Conservative Members be so oblivious to the predicament they are putting people in? [Interruption.] If they quieten down, they will be able to listen to what I have to say.

During the summer holidays I became aware of the empty shelves in my local food bank. These shelves were empty because mothers could not afford to feed their children. They were relying on the free school meals during term-time, but during the school holidays they had no choice but to visit the food banks. So I decided to do something: I set up a lunch club for local children. I anticipated that me and my team would feed around 500 children, yet we ended up feeding 6,638 over 10 days. That was the scale of the problem, and that was before universal credit.

So how on earth are my constituents going to cope at Christmas with less money coming in and an even greater demand for money going out? Should I start planning a Christmas lunch club now, and asking local companies for donations yet again, or will the Government please open their eyes, look at the situation they are creating, and put a hold on the roll-out until the fundamental flaws of this ridiculous universal credit are resolved?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for High Peak (Ruth George), who has made some sensible points about the Government listening and our not wanting to get people into debt at the start of this difficult time in their lives.

Universal credit was introduced into Thirsk and Malton 15 months ago, and I am in no way ignorant or in denial; nor do I lack compassion about some of the difficulties that have been caused. In my experience, the vast majority of people have not suffered difficulties, but some have. Those difficulties fall into two different categories: technical and structural.

The technical difficulties are to do with mistakes, both by the user entering into the system and the people administering it at the benefits end of the system. There have been difficulties, and I have written to the Minister about them and know he will respond in detail. There are also structural difficulties with the monthly payment cycle, when many of my constituents, especially at the lower end of the income scale, get paid weekly. That has caused some cash-flow problems for some of my constituents.

Do I want to go back to the old system, or do I want a pause? I absolutely do not. Like many colleagues in this place, I have met staff at my citizens advice bureau, and have sat in on consultations with people accessing benefits, some of whom said before to the introduction of universal credit, “I cannot work more; there is a 16-hour limit on how much I can work.” The CAB itself has advised that that is the position. We do not want to return to that situation. We also do not want to return to a situation that is less effective at getting people into work and keeping them in work.

I also make a plea for the taxpayer in this debate. There are two sides to this coin. As the Prime Minister said last week, the Government have no money: all money is simply collected from the taxpayer and redistributed. Since the partial introduction of this basket of reforms, there are now 700,000 fewer workless households, and 40,000 households where people have never previously worked who are now in work. That is a benefit both to the taxpayer and the people in those households, particularly the young people in them. There has therefore been a fundamental improvement in many cases

I made the point earlier that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), described the upfront payment as a loan. Will she clarify that point? Is she saying that she does not want to make it a loan, but instead wants to make it an extra payment? That would add a burden on the taxpayer; that will mean more money has to come from the taxpayer. If that is what she wants, she should clearly set out her spending plans and calculate what extra payments she is going to make. Would that be fair, too, to those who do not ask for the upfront payments? We must take the taxpayer into account in our discussions on this matter.

I would unquestionably like to see some changes, particularly to shorten the timescale from six weeks to ease the burden on some of my constituents who are paid weekly and to make sure the upfront payments are available and also publicised to all who apply for universal credit. It would also be sensible to make more people aware that rent can be paid directly to the landlords in the social housing and private rented sectors and to have more training and ownership for the people who work to deliver these benefits. Other than that, I absolutely welcome this change.