Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Kevin Brennan and Steve Baker

Committee stage
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Steve Baker]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I am grateful to all Members for supporting the expedited passage of this legislation, and I am very grateful for the accommodation made to do so, for all the reasons given. I rise principally to express my thanks to everybody who has participated in the House, including the Front Benchers for their constructive role as critical friends. I also want to place on the record the Government’s appreciation to the House authorities, especially the Clerks who guided us, as ever, in expert fashion.

We would like to thank as a Department again the superb Caroline MacBeath in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for the expert fashion in which she and colleagues have drafted this Bill with Northern Ireland counterparts in the Office of the Legislative Counsel, so my thanks to all of them, and also to officials in the Department of Finance in particular. I again want to thank officials in the NIO and across the Northern Ireland civil service, especially the permanent secretaries, for their work together in coming up with this Budget.

I thank colleagues and officials in the Government Whips Office for their support and assistance—[Interruption.] Give him a job? It is too late. Where am I?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The House of Commons.

[Mr Baker]

Thank you. It has been a busy day and I am grateful that there is some levity, but I would like to finish by saying that we did not want to have to pass this Bill; it is not a Bill that the House wanted to have before it.

In closing my Third Reading speech, and thanking everybody for making this possible so that public services can go ahead in Northern Ireland, I refer to what I said at the end of my Second Reading speech: we are going to need to do better in Northern Ireland, and I know that all of us in this House will play our part in making that happen.

Co-operatives in Education

Debate between Kevin Brennan and Steve Baker

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Thank you for your kind words, Mr Hollobone. It is a pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship in this important debate. I thank the Minister for being here. I know that liberating his time has caused his Department some inconvenience, and I am extremely grateful to him for being here willingly when his Department is so busy.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

It is his duty.

[Steve Baker]

As the hon. Gentleman says, it is the Minister’s duty, but he has been most generous in the way he has approached the debate.

My reason for calling this debate is to support the Cressex school in my constituency, the young people it serves and the wider community from which they are drawn. It is undoubtedly the most disadvantaged community in my constituency. I want to cover the circumstances and successes of Cressex school, and the wider experience of co-operatives in education, and to ask the Government for action. I hope the Minister will forgive me if I say that although they have said some interesting and good things, they need to follow them through.

In a message of support, Dame Pauline Green, president of the International Co-operative Alliance, has set the definitive context for this debate. She said:

“Co-operatives have been involved in education from the very beginning, and there is an inextricable link between education and co-operative development. That is why we continued to place great emphasis on education when the co-operative principles were last revised in 1995, and why new guidance notes strongly reaffirm the importance of co-operative education.”

When I visited the Rochdale Pioneers museum, I was pleased to discover two things that explained a lot to me: autonomy, which I will return to, and the fact that one of the principles of co-operation has always been to educate, train and inform.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

The hon. Gentleman does not want to intervene. He is chuntering away from a sedentary position, but he is not prepared to share his views with us.

If there is a co-operative schools system underpinned by the values described so eloquently by the hon. Member for Wycombe at the start of the debate, we overcome such problems. The schools can have autonomy. They can be run by local people according to a set of values that do not put profit before the education of local children and the views of local people.

I have had the opportunity to visit co-operative schools around the country. I mentioned earlier the visits that I made to Upper Shirley high school in Southampton and the Tiverton co-operative learning development trust in Devon. I talked to the teachers and the leaders in those co-operative schools and I put the hard questions to them. It is not enough simply to have a structure and values in place. It has to be absolutely the case that everybody involved in the school is focused on raising standards and making sure that every child matters and that every child is given an opportunity to fulfil their potential.

I have no doubt that from time to time some co-operative schools will go off the rails, as do other schools, but it is surely right that a model based on co-operative principles, whereby everybody knows the values that they should be working to, stands a better chance of success than one that is based on ultimately making a profit. That is a road down which I understand the Secretary of State is interested in travelling.

[Steve Baker]

I do not want to break up the spirit of consensus that we have engendered, but I am not against profit. I simply want to draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention back to the third principle of co-operatives, which I am sure he knows better than I do: member economic participation. We know—we discussed it earlier—that one reason why the Rochdale pioneers succeeded is because they made a surplus, and surpluses are paid as dividends to members. I am a little cautious when talking about co-operatives. I would not want the debate to be shut down too far, because there is an honourable tradition, clearly articulated by the co-operative movement, of member economic participation. I would not want to exclude it from the future of co-operative schools.

[Kevin Brennan]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s remarks and the opportunity to make it clear that I am not against profit, either. We live in a mixed economy and the market is a wonderful thing. In the case of education, occasionally it can be a good servant, but it is a very, very poor master. Opposition Members will never support profit-making schools. Yes, there is a role for a profit-making business in education—publishers, for instance—but Opposition Members will not support profit making in taxpayer-funded schools.