Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Debate between Kemi Badenoch and Jeremy Wright

2nd reading
Wednesday 20th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive. We have carefully considered the territorial extent of each piece of legislation, and we are rigorous in our commitment to devolution. The hon. Gentleman should be assured of the amount of work that is taking place to ensure that we get the Bill done properly in a way that will not have unintended consequences. I thank him for that point.

This new legislation will quash all convictions that meet the clear and objective conditions laid out in it. We recognise that postmasters have suffered too much for far too long, which is why convictions will be quashed automatically when the Bill receives Royal Assent, removing the need for people to apply to have their conviction overturned.

[Sir Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I understand entirely why the Bill is necessary. She will agree that it is important that we do not, through the Bill, set any precedent for the interference of this House in individual convictions, unless there are exceptional circumstances such as these. That means that the Bill must be tightly drafted. At the moment, condition E—the last of the conditions that she has mentioned—is that

“at the time of the alleged offence, the Horizon system was being used for the purposes of the post office business.”

Why is that not phrased differently to say that Horizon-based evidence was presented in the case against the person convicted? There is a material difference between those two things. I just seek to understand why she has chosen that formulation rather than the alternative.

[Kemi Badenoch]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes a good point about the final condition in the Bill. That is something that we considered, but it would likely have required a case-by-case, file-by-file assessment of each prosecution. That would have added significant time and complexity, which is what our solution avoids. One thing that I have been keen to emphasise is that speed and pace are critical. This has taken far longer than I would have wanted, and I would not have gone for a solution that would have impeded this and created complications.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Kemi Badenoch and Jeremy Wright

Thursday 22nd March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

We are already doing a great deal to attempt to reassure the judiciary. The hon. and learned Lady is right to say that yesterday Baroness Hale raised, as others have done before her, concerns that the judiciary have expressed about being put in a position where they are expected to make a political judgment. That is not the Government’s intention. We do not expect judges to make political judgments. Indeed, we absolutely want them not to do that. We do want them to be able to interpret the law as it will stand post exit, with all the necessary guidance we can give them. We will continue to work with them to provide the necessary clarity

[Mrs Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

5. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the application of the rule of law to cyber-activities.

[Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)]

8. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the application of the rule of law to cyber-activities.

[The Attorney General (Jeremy Wright)]

Cyber-space is not a lawless world. When states and individuals engage in hostile cyber-operations, they are governed by the law, just as they are elsewhere. The UK has always been clear that we consider cyber-space to be governed by the wider rules-based international order that we are proud to promote.

[Mrs Badenoch]

What actions can we take against those countries that we know are carrying out hostile actions in cyber-space?

[The Attorney General]

Many states accept that international law covers cyber-space. In June 2015, there was a decision by 20 United Nations states to confirm that. Interestingly, one of those 20 states was Russia. Our argument, therefore, is that if there is an internationally wrongful act against the UK in cyber-space or anywhere else, the UK is entitled to respond.