Industrial Strategy

Debate between Kelvin Hopkins and Roger Mullin

Thursday 20th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Roger Mullin]

I wish the hon. Gentleman would not mince his words—he should say it as he really feels it.

Where Smith has some relevance is in his argument that critical to growth was the division of labour in society, with specialisation—what we might call today the importance of having the education and skills that allow us to promote innovation and change. That is what spurs longer-term growth, and on that he was absolutely correct. That important need to drive forward with new technologies and new thinking is why it is utter madness that the Government pulled out of one of the biggest world-leading research projects, the carbon capture project in the north-east of Scotland. If ever there was an indicator of their turning their mind away from what is fundamental to long-term economic growth, it is that decision.

The other thing Adam Smith said that I completely approve of is that there is a role for state intervention. In particular, it is to ensure the kind of education that supports society economically as well as socially. We cannot leave education and skills to the marketplace. We have to make sure they are taken care of.

I was interested by the way in which Members talked about the importance of technology. It strikes me that historically, one of the problems we have had with funding is that we have plenty of people in our universities and the like who are able to come up with great technological ideas and innovations, but those innovations take many years to reach the marketplace. Private sector investment seems best when it is either at or near the marketplace. The problem, very often, has been the gap between the idea and bringing it to fruition. That is where the need for the role of the Scottish Investment Bank comes in, and I think that is what my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian was hinting at when he talked about the valuable work of the Catapult centres. They can attract different forms of funding in a competitive way for things that may take time to reach the marketplace.

I was interested in the remarks made about the challenge that we face because of Brexit. The Government’s response, chaotic as it is, is driving down confidence. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West talked about the importance of confidence. That reminded me of what Keynes argued, which was that the principal determinant of the level of private investment is not the rate of interest nor even the level of aggregate demand, but the state of business confidence.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman. I always enjoy his speeches, I have to say. When it comes to the EU, however, does he not accept that confidence has been driven down by those who lost the argument and the vote, who are constantly saying that it will be terribly damaging and an economic disaster? In fact, as Ashoka Mody has said, it is actually proving to be quite beneficial.

[Roger Mullin]

I would take issue with the latter part of the hon. Gentleman’s observations. We were on the opposite side of the argument, but surely he would agree that the Government’s response to the vote has been utterly chaotic? We are no further forward four months later than we were at the time as to what the Government mean by Brexit and how they are going to take us there. That is doing nothing other than driving down confidence in business.

I do not want to take up too much time, but let me come on to one further important issue that was raised, which is in the general sphere of education. That is the importance of the post-study work visa. I would add to that the tier 1 entrepreneur visa. We need to encourage people from overseas to come to this country to help us drive up business investment and innovative ideas. I read an essay by a friend of mine, Professor David Simpson, a few weeks’ ago. He pointed out that one third of successful business start-ups in California between 1980 and 2000 were by people who had come from either India or China. At a time when we need, not least in Scotland, to attract the best minds to help to drive forward the economy, setting our face against that cannot be in anyone’s interest. It certainly cannot be in the interest of anything we might call an industrial strategy.

Finance Bill

Debate between Kelvin Hopkins and Roger Mullin

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Roger Mullin]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it would be better for some in this community to achieve traditional forms of employment, but that is not the situation for the in excess of 1 million people in the UK who fall into this category.

Despite the Minister’s warm words, we intend to press new clause 1. It relates to a matter of some real import for the communities and the economy of Scotland. I have indicated that we are simply speaking to amendment 180, which we will not press, and we will support the Opposition’s amendment 2.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I rise to speak briefly on these amendments and new clauses. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Roger Mullin) was absolutely right to mention HMRC. Successive Governments have consistently understaffed HMRC, consistently arguing that they would make it more efficient or whatever. When I was first elected to this House 19 years ago, I remember going to my local VAT office and being told that every member of staff collects five times their salary. Being a logical sort of person, I wrote to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer and suggested that it was a good idea to employ more staff to collect more revenue for the Government. I received a letter back not from the Chancellor and not even from a junior Minister but from a civil servant, suggesting that HMRC was to save money by cutting staff. It was so irrational that it was just nonsense. That kind of nonsense has continued ever since—reducing the number of offices, making things more remote and so on. I was also not terribly impressed by the idea of having a benefits-distributing service—tax credits—going through HMRC rather than through the Department for Work and Pensions. I was not the only Opposition Member who was uneasy about that change.

I want to discuss new clause 3 and the tax treatment of workers employed through intermediaries and support my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) on the Front Bench. It has long occurred to me that intermediaries and private agencies make lots of money out of both the public purse and the people they employ. That could be overcome if we instituted a substantial public ownership programme for agencies, particularly when the public sector is involved. If there was a local authority or NHS agency for nurses, the money would either go into the pockets of the staff employed through the agency or would be saved in public spending by the health service—everyone would benefit. However, the people who would lose would be in the private sector, which could not make profits out of employing people in this way. In that way, staffing and taxation could be properly regulated. There would be no cheating, irregularities or tax fiddles, because it would all be within the publicly accountable public sector.