Immigration

Keir Starmer Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Walker, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I assure you that I do not intend to take more than about 10 or 15 minutes. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) for facilitating the debate.

I echo some of the comments made about the petition and urge the Petitions Committee to look again at how petitions are brought forward for debate. I do understand that it is difficult to get the balance right between petitions that we might think more worthy of debate and others. It is worth going back to have another look at the guidelines, but I do not mean that as a criticism for bringing forth today’s debate.

My party and I profoundly disagree with the petition. That will come as no surprise to anyone here—to some extent, it echoes many of the comments already made. May I start by emphasising the huge contribution made by so many people who have come to this country over many years? Without that, the UK would not be the country, or set of countries, that it is. Our economy and our society benefit from the talent and investment of people who come here, including students who come here to study. That cannot and should not be measured solely in financial terms; we must look much more broadly than that.

An example given by the British Medical Association reflects some of the comments made by hon. Members in the debate. In anticipation of the debate, it said:

“Much of the rhetoric about immigration has focused on the pressures that increased immigration has placed on public services including the health service, housing and schools.”

It believes that it is important to acknowledge the contribution made by

“highly skilled migrants, including doctors…in delivering and sustaining public services including the NHS and our universities.”

It draws on the example of international medical graduates—doctors—who have become essential members of the UK’s medical workforce. The NHS is dependent on them to provide a high quality, reliable and safe service to patients. It says that international medical graduates

“have enhanced the UK health system over the years, improving the diversity of the profession to reflect a changing population, and filling shortages in specialties which may otherwise remain empty.”

That is just one example of the contribution made by those who have come to this country over the years.

A number of hon. Members touched on the question of refugees. I appreciate that that is not the core subject matter of the debate, but may I say a few words on that? We need to celebrate our proud tradition of providing refuge to those fleeing persecution in other countries. In the light of the current crisis, we need to work with the UN to support vulnerable refugees, and those from Syria in particular. More needs to be done and we need to tackle all of the issues upstream.

I remind hon. Members that serious proposals were put forward last week by a highly experienced group of judges, ex-judges, lawyers and other experts in the field of refugee law and practice. Their proposals are worthy of serious consideration and we must find time to consider them.

First, the UK should take a fair and proportionate share of refugees from both within and outside the EU. We need to have that debate—we had some of it last week. Secondly, safe and legal routes to asylum need to be established. That goes to the heart of the discussion about whether refugees should be taken from within Europe having already arrived, or beforehand, but the key issue is safe and legal routes. Thirdly, there must be access to fair and thorough procedures to determine eligibility for protection. Those serious proposals have been put on the table by eminent experts in the field who think there should be debate, and I urge that we find time for that.

Although I have profound concerns about and disagree with the motion, I accept that we should debate immigration and the issues that lie behind the petition. That does not mean that those who drafted or supported it are right or that they speak with one voice, but we should not shy away from the questions raised for us to debate. It is therefore good that we have had this debate today.

In many ways the question is about how to get the balance right. We need an immigration system with controls that are properly administered and effective, but, equally importantly, we also need fairness and humanity. We need strong borders. Labour has argued for more staffing on the borders and better training for those staff. We also need fair rules to protect those who are exploited and migrant workers in particular.

[Paul Scully]

This is an opportune time to raise something that perhaps the Minister can discuss or take away. The Government brought in exit checks in about April, but we need more of a physical presence to police those checks. That may require investment.

[Keir Starmer]

I am grateful for that intervention. Labour’s position is that it is more appropriate to have more staff on the borders carrying out proper checks than to impose a burden on landlords to carry out checks later on, as proposed by the Immigration Bill, which will be in Committee from tomorrow morning.

On preventing exploitation of migrant workers, my party and I welcome the establishment of a director of labour market enforcement. There has been a very low number of civil penalties and criminal prosecutions over the years, so hopefully the establishment of that post will change the position considerably.

In terms of fairness and humanity, there are issues worthy of serious consideration: first, ending the indefinite detention of people in the asylum and immigration system; and secondly, ending the detention of pregnant women and victims of sexual abuse or trafficking. There is also the question of removal of support from those whose asylum claims have failed. That policy was piloted 10 years ago and ended in failure.

Finally, when looking at a balanced approach, there are the counterproductive issues. It is counterproductive to put such constraints on students coming to the country that many of our leading institutions fear that they will drop in the world rankings year on year as they fail to attract the students they need or fail to retain them thereafter. That needs to be looked at seriously. I will put in that same bracket the proposals in the Immigration Bill on employee offences. I have no difficulty at all with the provisions that come down harder on employers, but the problem with coming down on employees is that unless individuals have the confidence to come forward, the counter-effect will be that it will not be possible to bring the cases the Bill intends to allow.

In conclusion, we should celebrate the contribution of all those who have come to this country. We need to balance the strong and effective with the fair and humane, but I welcome the fact that we have had this discussion today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Harrington]

I apologise for that misunderstanding. I was about to say that I met representatives of the Scottish Government straightaway to discuss Scotland’s share of the 20,000. However, I am afraid that I genuinely do not know the answer to the question he has just asked either—that has got me off the hook.

There is a lot of co-operation between the British and French Governments on the situation in Calais, which has received a lot of publicity. That situation is important, but I should make it clear that it has nothing to do with the refugees we are talking about or with our humanitarian policy of taking refugees from places adjacent to Syria.

There has been some criticism of our approach, and I would like to go on to the point the shadow Minister made about the letter from the lawyers and others published, I think, in The Guardian last week. I do not agree with what they say, because they give no credit to the Government for what they have done to try to help to deal with the refugee crisis. They talk purely about the number of people we are going to take into the country and say that it is inadequate. However, Government policy is clear: we are dealing with everything as part of an holistic, humanitarian issue. We are spending large amounts—about £1.1 billion—on helping refugees in the countries adjacent to Syria. I have been to Jordan, and I have seen the effects of what we are doing. We should be very proud of the money we are spending and of the British people, non-governmental organisations and other organisations that are working there—I could talk about the millions of food parcels and everything else. When I was there, I was told that, possibly apart from the Americans, we are the largest country doing these things. Our policy of bringing vulnerable refugees to this country is part of that, but those who signed the letter in The Guardian gave us no credit for it.

[Keir Starmer]

Is not the significance of that statement that those ex-judges have considerable experience, including at international level? The lawyers who signed it included QCs who were briefed on behalf of the Government. These individuals have not come from particularly campaigning backgrounds; they are lawyers and others who are experienced in the field, and who profoundly disagree with the Government’s approach. Does the Minister not agree that, whatever approach they take, the proposals they put on the table warrant serious consideration?

[Richard Harrington]

The shadow Minister himself is a lawyer of considerable reputation and expertise, and it would be impossible for me to criticise the legal profession in his presence. All I can say is that I disagree with those who signed the letter. When asked to give a number, the person who was interviewed on the “Today” programme could not. There is not more justification for the number of people they mentioned than there is for Prime Minister’s number of 20,000. He mentioned that number because he feels that that is the number of vulnerable people we can sustain. Those who signed the letter could have mentioned two times, three times or four times the number they did. All decent people want to help, but the Government have to balance different factors.

I am proud of the fact that the Government have promised to take 20,000 people. People have their own views as to whether it should be more. Many people believe it should be fewer, but I am certain that my responsibility is to ensure that the 20,000 people whom the Government have agreed to take are properly selected and brought here with dignity, and given the attention they need. I accept that there are other arguments about the issue, and it cannot be ring-fenced as a refugee issue; the matter is part of the general immigration issue that we have been discussing.

I am proud of this country’s tradition with refugees and that we are playing our part, particularly having seen what we are doing in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey to make people’s lives as decent as they can be in the circumstances. The Government should be proud, and by and large there is political consensus on most of the issue, although I accept there may be differences over numbers. I have been keen and quick to commend Labour councils as well as non-Labour councils that have put themselves forward. I do not think that people are playing politics over the matter at all, which is how it should be.

I agreed with most of the long speech made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, but I want to make it clear that the Mr David Harrington he mentioned is no relation to me. If he were, and there was a way for me to expel him from my family, I certainly would, with views like those. To make a serious point, I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s view that a legitimate anti-immigration view is not necessarily a racist view at all, notwithstanding the language used in such a petition as we have been considering. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House discuss immigration on the Floor of the House, and it is cheap to say that a contrary view is racist. That is not so at all, and if anything it does a disservice to the merits of the argument.

I cannot really comment on the idea that the hon. Gentleman raised of bringing people here to do apprenticeships, because that would come under the general apprenticeship programme, but I certainly hope that many of the Syrians who come here will be suited—subject to getting their English language skills up quickly, as we hope will happen—to apprenticeships. I mean that not so that the Government can hit their target, but because it will enhance their lives—what has happened to those people is so tragic.

I agree with the definition of managed immigration offered by my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay—I thought that was very good—and with his plea for us to treat refugees with compassion. From what I saw in Bradford of the smaller number of people who have come in up to now under the vulnerable persons scheme, they are treated with compassion, including the provision of housing for them. They are given a Syrian meal, cooked by local Syrians, when they arrive, and a lot of individual mentoring. Speaking to them reveals the tragedies of their lives. One person told me that two or three years ago they were practising as a dentist in Aleppo. One had been a professor of ancient languages at a university. We cannot imagine: it happened like that—I do not know whether my clicking my finger can go into Hansard. I apologise for that. What happened was so instantaneous that their lives were transformed, tragically.

I have taken rather a lot of the House’s time, but I think this is exactly the sort of debate we should have. Members across the House have no truck with the words of the petition, and I look forward to many future debates, when I hope to be able to report positively on the resettling of Syrian refugees.