National Health Service (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill

Debate between John Pugh and Tony Baldry

Friday 21st November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes his own point very well in his own way. It is important for all of us to remember that the NHS is our NHS and our constituents’ NHS. It does not belong to any particular political party; it is a national heath service.

Alan Milburn concluded that the “major reforms”, which included working more closely with the private sector, would

“deliver real benefits for NHS patients”.

Chapter 11 of the NHS plan of July 2000, on “Changes in the relationship between the NHS and the private sector”, said:

“The NHS is a huge organisation. Using extra capacity and extra investment from voluntary and private sector providers can benefit NHS patients… The time has now come for the NHS to engage more constructively with the private sector”.

Under the heading, “The basis for a new relationship”, it went on:

“Ideological boundaries or institutional barriers should not stand in the way of better care for NHS patients…By constructing the right partnerships the NHS can harness the capacity of private and voluntary providers to treat more NHS patients…Under our proposals a patient would remain an NHS patient even if they were being treated in the private sector. NHS care will remain free at the point of delivery, whether care is provided by an NHS hospital, a local GP, a private sector hospital or by a voluntary organisation.”

[John Pugh]

The right hon. Gentleman is outlining a thread of continuity very well. Is it not strange that the principal adviser to Alan Milburn has now been appointed by this Government as the head of NHS England? Does that not show that there has been continuity from one Government to another with the same policies?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I would hope, with an organisation like the NHS, that it would not become a political football—that there would be considerable continuity. The fact that the person now in post worked with a Labour Government on NHS proposals is a strong point rather than a weak one.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between John Pugh and Tony Baldry

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I start by apologising to the House for making what I suspect may sound like a slightly portentous speech. It is not meant to sound portentous, but if it does I apologise.

Because of the effluxion of time, there are not many former Ministers on the Government Benches are, but there is, irrespective of the topic, an important point that needs to be made in the context of today’s debate. I urge every right hon. and hon. Member, before they vote at the end of this debate, to get a copy of House of Lords Hansard for yesterday’s debate, where this matter was debated. There are, in that Lords Hansard, two speeches that hon. Members would do well to read: those of Lord Wilson of Dinton and Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, both former heads of the civil service.

Lord Wilson was head of the civil service during the time of a Labour Government, and both he and Lord Armstrong made it very clear in their speeches yesterday that to release the risk register would be extremely bad news for the relationship between the civil service and Ministers generally. Irrespective of this issue, irrespective of the topic, if risk registers were to be released, officials would needlessly be politicised and thus be concerned about the advice that they gave to Ministers. Ministers would then find themselves being given verbal advice, fewer people would be involved and that would not help the machinery of government.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Tony Baldry]

May I just make some progress?

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Baldry]

I understand that point, but they are very different registers. The register to which the right hon. Lady refers is meant to be publicised. The two are of an entirely different nature, and that point has been explained to the House by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench on a number of occasions.

We are discussing departmental risk registers and the advice that civil servants give to Ministers. All I am saying is that right hon. and hon. colleagues, before they vote, should at least take care to consider the advice of former heads of the civil service on the effect that publication would have on the relationship between civil servants and Ministers.

[John Pugh]

If what the hon. Gentleman says is true, why has the Cabinet Office released the register on civil emergencies and put it on the internet?

Social Care Funding

Debate between John Pugh and Tony Baldry

Thursday 10th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, but I think that we have all slightly lost track of the number of Green Papers, discussion documents and other things that we have had in relation to social care. What will be really important next spring is that we get a White Paper that has a summary that everyone can understand and that makes it very clear what will be the basic system for funding residential social care for the future. I think that that would be greeted in the House by a quick rendering of the “Hallelujah Chorus”.

Following my hon. Friend’s point, if the White Paper can set out the direction of travel for the rest, that would be good news. What we have seen all too often in the past is a discussion paper that concludes that the issue is so huge and so difficult that we have almost lost the will to live. Spring 2012 has to produce a White Paper with a clear commitment to the funding of long-term residential care, and then direction of travel for the rest is important.

Finally, I agree with the need to enhance the status of care workers. In my experience, the model adopted by many residential care homes has often been to recruit people from the Philippines or eastern Europe. The deal was that they came over, got trained, were often paid the minimum wage and, having been trained, worked in the national health service. Because the Government, perfectly understandably and quite rightly, are capping immigration from outside the European Union, it is no longer possible for nursing homes and residential care homes to recruit from the Philippines or outside the European Union, so we have to enhance the status of care workers, both in the NHS and in residential care homes.

On my patch, I have suggested to the chief executive of the Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust—I am glad that he has responded positively—and others that we should consider setting up in Oxfordshire one of the new Government’s work academies, specifically for care workers. We need to ensure that far more people see care and working in the care sector as a valued profession that makes a real contribution to society. It needs a career path, with a national vocational qualification, training and proper involvement from further education colleges. The issue is of as much interest to the national health service as it is to residential care homes, because if those care homes have sufficient care workers it will be easier for discharges into them to take place. Moreover, we often need to ensure that the NHS has sufficiently well-motivated and well-qualified nursing care assistants. I hope that we will begin to see centres of excellence around the country that will train people as care workers, to ensure that we do not find ourselves in difficulties because nursing homes and residential care homes have to close because they cannot recruit qualified staff.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

Would not the consequence of that be that care homes would have to pay better wages than they do at present? The hon. Gentleman has mentioned people from the Philippines. I had some in my constituency who were allowed to stay provided that they were paid for their qualifications, but the care homes refused to do so in some cases.

[Tony Baldry]

The management of any sensible care home will want to ensure that it invests in its staff. It has a duty and responsibility to do so. It has to play its part in ensuring that it, like any employer, helps with the required skills, qualifications and training of those people. This is an important issue and one that we have to get right if we are to have proper levels of care in the community, of residential nursing home care, and of care in the NHS.

NHS (Public Satisfaction)

Debate between John Pugh and Tony Baldry

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) makes his own points in his own way. Both my parents started to work for the NHS on the day it came into being: my father as a doctor and my mother as a nurse. Throughout the 60-plus years of its existence there has been enormous pride in the NHS, among those who work in it and among the community as a whole.

The interesting notion advanced by the Opposition is that because people are generally satisfied with their doctors, all is well with the NHS. Of course people are overwhelmingly happy with their GPs. By and large, we have freedom of choice over our GP, and if we are not happy with services we change our GP. It is of concern that a recent survey of NHS users found that one in five failed to get a prompt GP appointment when they asked for it, but that notwithstanding it is not surprising that nine out of 10 patients are satisfied with their GP surgeries. That is not the point. The point is that we have an ageing and more complex population who will rightly make increasing demands on the NHS. Unsurprisingly, most people have greatest contact with the NHS in the last years of their lives.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I do not want to put the hon. Gentleman off his stride, but is he not slightly missing the point made by the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer), which was not simply that people are satisfied with the NHS but that they are progressively more satisfied, which is a more surprising finding, is it not?

[Tony Baldry]

I have not missed the point at all. The point being made by the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead is that nine out of 10 people are satisfied with their GPs, so somehow all is well with the NHS and nothing need change. If my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) had read the report of the Public Accounts Committee, chaired by the former Labour Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), he would know that it concludes that although the previous Government increased the amount of money going into the NHS that did not lead to greater outputs. The report makes sobering reading, and I am concerned that more parliamentary colleagues have not read it and that it has not received the attention in the House that it deserves.