Immigration Rules (International Students)

Debate between John Pugh and James Gray

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh]

Okay. I am grateful to hear that. The issue may not be a problem because when we think about it objectively, somebody who masters English, having not started out with English as their native tongue, and who has qualified in a good British university, may be precisely the sort of person the country needs.

None the less, I accept that, generally speaking, the Government, the public, the world distinguish between admission for study and admission for work, and they are two different things. The problem is that in this country we allow anxieties about the latter to completely screw up the former, if I can use that as parliamentary language, Mr Gray; I probably cannot.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

There is no rule against it.

[John Pugh]

Hence the conflict that rides through Government between the Home Office and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, who clearly has a different opinion. Hence we see the significance that higher education has for Brexit not only from the money point of view but because courses will fall over and research will simply not be done.

I am not going to volunteer an elegant solution to managing the position between admission for work and admission for study. It is a choice between whatever the Government want to do—summary rejection or complete inertia. However, I will make a simple point that most people would want to make. The Government can make life easy for themselves—they really can—by following business advice, public instinct and academic argument and publicly differentiate the student and the migrant.

Financial Sustainability (Local Government)

Debate between John Pugh and James Gray

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gray]

Like the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), the hon. Gentleman makes a powerful case for maintaining spending on local government. I disagree with his thesis that cuts are deeper in urban areas than rural areas, but let us leave that on one side for a moment. If I am right in guessing that the hon. Gentleman is saying that spending must be maintained at local government level, will he, a Liberal Democrat, tell us which central Government budgets he would like cut so that the local government settlement could be increased?

[John Pugh]

I am not necessarily making a case for increasing the local authority settlement. I am mainly making a fair case for different distribution, and for spreading it over more years, to enable local authorities to make the appropriate adjustments.

My fourth point, which has not been stressed in the debate so far, is that local authority spending is now significantly unbalanced. Because of the nature of the cuts, local authorities have had to concentrate on their statutory services, which primarily means social services. Most ordinary punters and electors do not ordinarily interact with social services. That is a democratic problem as well as a financial one. We have all heard of the graph of doom and the view that some local authorities will end up spending on nothing but social services. If that happens, neither electors nor the authorities will welcome it.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston is right about the situation. She did not say that it was not sustainable; she said that the trajectory we are on is not sustainable, and I agree. Various things could be done about it, and she suggested some. I shall not cover the same ground that she did. We can spread good practice and develop community budgets—the Select Committee did some work on that. We can talk about possible savings from the integration of health and social care, which would be good, or about possible benefits from the repatriation of rates, and accompanying incentives.

We can talk about things on a grand scale, as the Local Government Association is doing at the moment with the Rewiring Public Services campaign, which would also be good. All those ideas are ways forward, but they will not work at all unless we sensibly and intelligently—starting in this Chamber—stop the dishonest conversation and look at the facts for what they are. If we concentrate on formulae designed to present the Government’s or a local authority’s case polemically in a particular way, we will never get central and local government speaking the same language, or succeed in making local authorities sustainable as a result.

Free Schools

Debate between John Pugh and James Gray

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh]

The hon. Lady is spot on. I have another, briefer e-mail from another parent at the same school, about the children’s day-to-day circumstances. The school is in an office block.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. “Erskine May” makes it plain that hon. Members should not use extensive quotations from documents in speeches, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman would summarise the e-mail rather than reading it out.