Infected Blood Inquiry

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

I have reached out to prominent charities, organisations and support groups to share the progress that has been made—I had to respect the fact that we needed to do that through the parliamentary process last Wednesday—and to seek their views, but not to replicate the considerable trauma that they went through giving evidence in an incredibly painful fashion through Sir Brian Langstaff’s inquiry. I am meeting those charities, organisations and support groups. I obviously cannot meet every single individual, but I am trying to use those meetings to inform the response of the Government and to make representations to my colleagues about what needs to be done so that we can land this in the most effective place as soon as we can from 20 May.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Does the Minister recognise that many people feel that the state, with all its delays in delivering justice to the victims of this scandal and their families, has utterly failed to recognise adequately the egregious harm that has been inflicted and continues to be inflicted on those impacted, leaving tens of thousands of victims and their families in great suffering as they continue to wait for compensation?

[John Glen]

Yes, I recognise that all delays are painful and frustrating and cause distress. That is why I am doing everything I can to move this forward as quickly as I can. I am sorry that that is repetitious, but it is the truth. I think I have updated the House meaningfully today on the legislation. I know what we need to do, which is to get to 20 May and, as soon as possible, come up with a comprehensive response on behalf of all those who have lost their lives and the families who have been ruined by this absolute scandal that has happened over 50 years.

Infected Blood Inquiry: Government Response

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Monday 18th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

I thank my hon. Friend for his questions. I could not agree with him more about the level of urgency that is attached to the Government’s response. He is right about the publication dates; I think the whole House is aware of that. In the past five weeks, I have taken concrete steps, building on the work of my predecessor, to take the actions necessary to make those decisions as quickly as possible along the timescale I have set out. I cannot reiterate enough the Government’s commitment to dealing with the issue as quickly as possible, and I am doing all I can to gain consensus across Government to move things forward as quickly as possible.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Most of what we have heard today is not new. All we are hearing from this Government are the same old delays, while those affected continue to feel let down and failed. The Government have been working at a snail’s pace on the issue and were shamed when they voted against a new compensation body for those impacted by the scandal. Those affected and the bereaved will not forgive them for that callous act and the ongoing delays, and today they will have those feelings all over again at this non-statement.

On 5 April, Sir Brian Langstaff published his final recommendations relating to compensation. Crucially, he recommended that interim payments be made to bereaved parents and children in respect of deaths as yet unrecognised. To date, the Government have not responded in practical terms to any of those recommendations. The Government’s position continues to be to wait for the full report expected next spring before considering whether to extend the compensation. That heaps insult upon injury to those affected and their families, as every four days another victim of this scandal dies. Time is of the essence for those affected. To delay this full compensation is to stand against justice and all that is morally and ethically right. To delay compensation to those who are literally running out of time is cruel and unnecessary. This Government need to rethink and listen to the will of this House, as expressed on 4 December in the face of shameful opposition from those on the Government Benches, and deliver justice and full compensation.

Where is the urgency? The Minister has used the words “urgency” and “urgent” several times today, but it does not feel to those who are affected that there is any urgency from the Government to address the great wrongs and losses that they have suffered.

Today, given the expressed will of this House, we were hoping for a timeline from the Government for when a full compensation body would be established and operational. Again, sadly, all we have is delay and obfuscation. Does the Minister feel no shame in coming here today to give a statement that says nothing?

[John Glen]

I do not accept that characterisation of what I have said today, as I have made a number of specific announcements on the progress that is being made. Neither do I accept the characterisation of the Government’s position as a callous act. This Government launched a public inquiry, and last year we made interim payments. I accept that a substantive response cannot happen soon enough, but I am doing everything I can, working with colleagues across Government, to look at the best way of delivering as quickly as possible, and I will continue to do so.

UK Gross Domestic Product

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Monday 13th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

The hon. Gentleman will also know that the Government invested in a seasonal workers scheme for 30,000 across agriculture, which has made a significant impact. We will continue to work with industry to see what further interventions can be made and need to be made.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Cuts to VAT on fuel duty are now beyond urgent. Some £46 of tax is paid on the average fuel tank, as fuel prices rocket to new highs. As households and businesses struggle, the Treasury is raking in additional billions in VAT on fuel, which is driving inflation across the whole economy. Finally, can we at last have a temporary 10% reduction in VAT on fuel to assist households, businesses and consumers and to help get inflation back under some kind of control, which will help everyone?

[John Glen]

The hon. Lady will know that just two weeks ago, the Chancellor came to this Dispatch Box and made a series of targeted interventions, in a greater way than many were calling for, to give assistance to the most vulnerable in our society—to pensioners, to those on means-tested benefits and to the disabled—with more support for pensioners on top of that. She will also know that as we approach the fiscal event, we will look at the state of the economy and the best possible interventions to assist not only that growth narrative, but the most vulnerable.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Tuesday 27th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. On modern slavery, the landmark provision in section 54 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 includes institutional investors that fall within the scope of the requirement and meet the criteria requiring them to publish an annual statement.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) [V]]

With the Prime Minister apparently determined to keep the VIP tax-break hotline open, and as questions remain over the No. 10 refurbishment and concerns over Government procurement are still not addressed, will the Chancellor explain whether he thinks it is time for an independent inquiry into the misuse of public funds?

Bank Branch Closures

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Westminster Hall

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

I echo the thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) for securing this important debate. I feel as if I have spent quite a lot of time in the five years since I was elected bemoaning the stampeding of banks out of our communities without so much as a backward glance.

My constituency has several towns where there is no bank at all, and other Members have talked of similar issues. Ardrossan, Stevenston, Kilwinning—a town of 21,000 people—West Kilbride, Dalry and Beith are all without a bank, and Kilbirnie’s last bank has reduced its opening hours. That is the only bank left in the entire Garnock valley, which is three distinct towns with a collective population of more than 19,000 people. Losing the last bank in our towns is a severe blow to our communities. It undermines their commercial stability and has a significant social impact, which we have heard much about today.

My constituency, like that of every Member who has spoken, has been hit particularly hard, and I share all the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson). In Scotland, according to research, we have lost more than one third of our bank branches since 2015. The consumer organisation Which? found that banks shut 396 Scottish branches between January 2015 and August 2019, reducing their number by 38%—an alarming rate of closure, by any measure. My hon. Friends the Members for Midlothian, for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have all said similar things.

As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire, it is clear that any consultations are simply window dressing. They are tick-box exercises so that the banks can reassure themselves and the Minister—“Oh yes, Minister, we have undertaken consultation”—when we know that is not true in reality. I remember the same thing happening in 2007 and 2008, when there were mass post office closures in my constituency. That was long before I was elected to this place, and perhaps innocently—perhaps even naively—I, along with other Scottish National party activists, set up street stalls. We went door to door with petitions. We did everything we could to get the post office to reverse those closures, but of course nothing changed, because the consultations were not at all meaningful. We have memories of these consultations from other times, and I say to the Minister that this has to stop.

The Treasury Committee concluded that

“there are still large sections of society who rely on bank branches to carry out their banking needs. A bank branch network, or at the least, a face-to-face banking solution, is still a vital component of the financial services sector, and must be preserved.”

I know that the Minister probably will not agree—I have said this to him before, during one of the countless debates on this topic I have participated in—but I genuinely believe that because there was no UK Government intervention when RBS announced its radical, eye-watering programme of closures, although we as taxpayers owned a significant stake in RBS, the fact that nothing was done emboldened the other banks that have no element of public ownership. If a publicly owned bank can do it, why can a private bank not do the same without any kickback or repercussions from those in the corridors of power?

If the Government are as willing as they have demonstrated to accept closures of bank branches—banks that they owned, in the case of RBS—that is extremely disappointing. Throughout RBS’s entire closure programme, I listened very hard, but I could not hear anybody in Government condemning those closures. All I heard was a distancing from any sense of responsibility, which is really disappointing for our constituents. It seems that other banks felt they could employ the same tactics and close down wherever they felt it was no longer convenient to have a branch, without any consequences or official condemnation from Government. As a result, the people who pay the price are those in our communities who are suffering for want of a bank, and will continue to suffer. We have heard a lot about that today.

Of course, we have these mobile banks, but they really do not answer the question of what we do without a bank. They are not disability compliant, their reliability is questionable at best, and they simply do not fit the bill or take the place of a bank. We also know that the gaps left by banks cannot be properly filled by post offices. That is no reflection on post offices, which work hard to provide a good service to our communities, but they are not banks and they cannot fill the gap. As the Minister will know, the Treasury Committee concluded that post offices

“should not be seen as a replacement for a branch network, but a complementary proposition”.

Other Members have talked about the fact that post offices simply cannot fill that gap.

Along with branch closures we are witnessing the demise of free cash machines, as we have heard. About 10 free-to-use ATMs a week have been shut down in the past year. As far as I can make out—although I hope the Minister will contradict me—the Treasury seems to have been deaf to all pleas for Government intervention to protect free cash. I hope that the Minister is able to offer some comfort today.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)]

It was in the Budget.

[Patricia Gibson]

I look forward to hearing from the Minister, who is speaking from a sedentary position.

The ATM Industry Association has warned that one fifth of Scotland’s free ATMs will start to charge consumers in the next year. That can be seen only as a cynical move to force us to become a cashless society. Picking up what has been touched on by my hon. Friends the Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, for East Renfrewshire, and for Midlothian, and the hon. Member for Strangford, bank closures have, as we now know—the game is up—been a tool to force people to bank online. As banks have quietly cut the fees that they are willing to pay machine operators to provide bank customers with access to cash, they are forcing us to go cashless and online. Banks are attempting to put pressure on customers who do not act in a way that they—the banks—find convenient. What happened to the customer being king?

Going cashless and banking online may, as we have heard, be the preferred option for some—and good luck to them—but some of us do not want to go down that route, and increasingly aggressive efforts are being made for it to happen, at breakneck speed. I and those of my constituents who do not favour those options will not be forced to bank online. We will not be bullied into doing so or into going cashless. It is a rum do when the service provider is bullying the customer—because that is how it feels. In any case, even among customers who may be interested in banking online there are some who simply are not able to, for a variety of reasons that the Minister will understand, and of which the hon. Member for Strangford reminded us.

I have corresponded with the Treasury about online banking in the past, and it accepted that broadband access is not yet good enough for everyone to rely on digital banking. The Government and the access to banking standard must ensure that banks have a social responsibility to provide banking facilities to all our towns. Such services could be provided relatively easily through the wide rolling-out of banking hubs. Indeed, I met the Minister in his constituency to discuss that very issue last year. I am hoping—I am quite excited about it—that he will be able to update me on progress with that. I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong but I cannot see any discernible obstacle to the option except for perhaps a lack of political will and, indeed, the arrogance and intransigence of the banking industry.

Our communities and constituents deserve better than they have had up to this point. Banks have to face up to their social responsibilities, get their heads together and create banking hubs in our towns, across the board. There is no real impediment to that, and I urge the Minister to use his good offices to bang some banking heads together and ensure that customers’ voices are heard. The Government have a role to play when the last bank in town is closed. They have said repeatedly that those are commercial decisions, but it is not just a commercial matter. It is about social responsibility and financial inclusion. I urge the Minister to reflect further on the strong feelings and concerns that have been expressed today. Will he finally bring forward legislative proposals to ensure that banks live up to their responsibilities to our communities?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Tuesday 21st May 2019 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

Clearly, the best way of avoiding a no-deal Brexit is to look favourably on what the Prime Minister brings back to the House of Commons in the week commencing 3 June.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

16. Brexit uncertainty is hurting firms across Scotland and the Bank of England has said that the Prime Minister’s deal could cut GDP by 3%. Does the Chancellor agree with himself, when he told Radio 4 in November last year that the deal will leave the economy “slightly smaller” and that in pure economic terms, there will be a loss?

[John Glen]

I will tell the hon. Lady what is causing great concern and instability in the sector that I am responsible for—life insurance and the pensions industry, which is thriving in Glasgow and Edinburgh—and that is the fear of the SNP leadership introducing a new currency.

Draft Privacy and Electronic Communications (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Wednesday 12th December 2018 General Committees

[John Glen]

Those regulations deal with that matter; I am dealing today with the banning of cold calling. I will move on to enforcement, and then I will be happy to respond.

The ban will be enforced by the Information Commissioner’s Office, a world leader in the protection of information rights. The ICO’s tough enforcement powers include fining offenders up to £500,000. I am also pleased to say that from Monday next week, 17 December, directors of companies making unlawful calls may also be personally liable for penalties of up to £500,000.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

The Minister says that named directors “may” be liable. Will he give us clarity on what “may” means in that context?

[John Glen]

What I mean is that there is scope for them to be fined up to £500,000, according to the breach that they have committed. That will be a matter for the ICO to adjudicate.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank industry and charity stakeholders for their engagement with the consultation over the summer. As a consequence, I am pleased to say that we have a set of regulations that our stakeholders can get behind. I emphasise that the Government do not consider this ban to be “job done”. We understand that scammers are skilled at adapting to circumstances and that scams are constantly evolving. As such, we will continue our efforts to understand and take action on future scams.

Project Bloom, a cross-Government taskforce established in 2012 and currently led by the Pensions Regulator, continues its work to tackle scams and identify emerging threats. In addition, the Government are committed to limiting the statutory right to transfer, to help prevent funds transferring from occupational pension schemes into fraudulent ones.

In conclusion, the Government believe that the proposed legislation is necessary to help protect consumers from pension fraudsters, and I hope colleagues will join me in supporting the regulations, which I commend to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patricia Gibson]

I welcome the proposals, as far as they go. The Minister may be aware that I have long campaigned against the whole culture of cold calling on the grounds of the distress, disturbance and alarm that it causes and the door that it leaves gapingly open to scammers of all kinds.

I was interested to hear the Minister say that the UK Government will implement my Bill to make named directors responsible, the Unsolicited Marketing Communications (Company Directors) Bill—in September, I think he said. The Government exactly reprinted and resurrected my Bill in the name of one of their own Back Benchers; that was ironic, given that one of the Bill’s goals was to deal with scammers, but its implementation is very welcome. However, there is a very serious point to be made.

If all consumers are to receive welcome protection from cold callers on receipt of their pension, surely the Government must concede that cold calling, in and of itself, leaves all consumers open to fraud or heavy-handed sales techniques. So far, at least, it seems that protection from cold calling is not to be extended to all consumers. I know that that issue is not in the Minister’s remit today, but it is an interesting point. Will he explain why the Government are not extending that protection? There has been a delay of more than two years in the important policy of using named directors’ responsibility to protect not only those with pension pots, but all consumers.

I welcome the common-sense approach outlined by the Minister under which the consumer will be able to receive marketing calls about their pension if they have explicitly consented to that. Of course, explicit consent cannot mean just ticking a tiny wee box at the bottom of a page of very small writing; it has to be more robust than that. People should not opt in to receive pension marketing calls by accident. Opting in must be clear and explicit. What assurances can the Minister give about that?

We are told that the general data protection regulation

“sets a high standard for consent”.

Will the Minister give us more detail about what that high standard looks like and what it involves?

I have concerns about the ICO being able to take action against organisations that contravene the regulations. We know that, in the past, companies that faced heavy penalties from the ICO for various breaches simply closed down and reopened with the same staff and premises under a different name. That is why named director responsibility matters so much. I welcome the Minister’s comment that it will be enshrined in law in September—

[John Glen]

December.

[Patricia Gibson]

This December or December 2019?

[John Glen]

I am very happy to confirm that I mean 17 December—next week.

[Patricia Gibson]

Excellent. I am very pleased to hear what the Minister has to say, and I welcome that. I have waited a long time for it. There has been a delay over named director responsibility. We want it not just for people with big pension pots, important as they are, but for all consumers in all industries. The two-year delay was a wasted opportunity. I wonder how many people have been swindled while we have waited.

The ICO can take any enforcement action it likes, but without named director responsibility it is a paper exercise because companies simply phoenix and evade their responsibilities. Penalty notices without named director responsibly are pie in the sky; they will not deter scammers.

I welcome these measures, and I am very pleased to hear about the December deadline that the Minister set out. I think he understands my reservations about this not being extended across every industry. For pension pots, this will stop scammers calling people without fear of reprisal and, when they receive a notice of penalty, simply putting it in the bin because it does not mean anything.

I urge the Minister to go back to his colleagues and make the case for real protection for all consumers in all industries. The Government supported named director responsibility for this measure, but we need to stop scammers across the board, not just in the area of pensions.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Glen]

I am extremely sorry to be reminded of that case. The regulations introduce a ban on pensions cold calling, but I would be happy to look into the matter and see what the collective conclusion of Government was on that particular case and its implications. I am happy to examine that in the context of my previous remarks.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran spoke about a more comprehensive cold calling ban. As I tried to indicate, pensions cold calling is a special case where levels of consumer detriment are particularly high. The Government are committed to taking action. I accept that, for some, action has not been taken as quickly as it could have been, but a balance has to be struck between ensuring that consumers are adequately protected and providing the right conditions for legitimate direct marketing industry to operate.

[Patricia Gibson]

Nobody wants to stop businesses going about their lawful work, but if we had named director responsibility across every sector, that would allow legitimate businesses to thrive, while the scammers and the cowboys would be the ones to suffer.

[John Glen]

I am happy to look at appropriate additional measures, in the light of the evidence presented. I would like to draw the Committee’s attention, for example, to situations where utilities companies use calls to prospects to secure a switch to their service, or where the publishing industry uses calls to consumers who have indicated some affinity with the brand. Many national newspapers and magazine publishing houses use that approach. I am not, in this response, indicating that the Government are closed off to any further moves, but it has to be done on an evidential basis.

[Patricia Gibson]

The examples that the Minister has given are of legitimate businesses going about their normal work. We are not talking about that sort of business; we are talking about the ones that phone up, pester, scare, disturb, annoy and scam people.

[John Glen]

Fraud is fraud, and with actionable fraud the police can be contacted in such circumstances. With respect to the cold calling mechanism, I have said all I can on that. The Government are open on the basis of evidence to move forward.

The hon. Lady also raised the issue of how the Government will ensure that consumers do not accidentally give consent through ticking a box on a form. To give clarity on what GDPR sets out, it is a high standard of consent, requiring a positive opt in. Any default method, such as a pre-ticked box, does not constitute consent under GDPR, as I made clear in my opening remarks. Guidance to firms on complying with GDPR highlights that that request for consent must be prominently displayed, clear and specific, and separate from the terms and conditions.

I hope that that deals—

ATM Closures

Debate between John Glen and Patricia Gibson

Tuesday 4th December 2018 Westminster Hall

[John Glen]

It is obviously difficult for me to comment on each of our 64,400 ATMs, but the hon. Lady makes a reasonable point, which I will certainly take back to my next meeting with the Payment Systems Regulator.

[Patricia Gibson]

Will the Minister give way?

[John Glen]

Yes; I have a bit of extra time.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister mentioned the Payment Systems Regulator, so before he moves on I want to ask whether he is considering giving it greater powers to protect cash, and imposing a duty of care on it, to ensure that the UK’s cash infrastructure is sustainable. That would address a lot of the concerns that hon. Members have expressed.

[John Glen]

I will come on to talk about the powers of the Payment Systems Regulator, which I have met. My judgment is that it has considerable power over the LINK network. It can mandate LINK to do certain things and it can impose fines. I would need to look carefully at what that proposal would involve and where it would be different from the powers that LINK has at the moment.

I acknowledge LINK’s independent review, which is chaired by Natalie Ceeney. As was mentioned earlier, the report will be published in March. It is looking at long-term access to cash and exploring further the impact on consumers and small businesses of the shift from cash to digital payments. I have met Natalie Ceeney and encouraged her to look as broadly as possible at this issue. I imagine that the nature of her powers, as well as what she needs to do her job, will be part of her report.

This House should also note that the payment systems regulator, which the Government established in 2015 to ensure that payment systems work well for those who use them and which regulates LINK, has taken a lead in examining this issue. Following the first publication of LINK’s ATM footprint report, the regulator used its powers to place a specific direction on LINK. This is designed to make sure that LINK does all it can to fulfil its public commitment to preserve the broad geographic spread of free ATMs and to report to the regulator on a regular basis.

I think I have addressed a number of the concerns raised in the debate. The Government have invested heavily in maintaining a stable network of post office branches. Anyone can use their LINK-enabled bank card to take money out for free at the counter of every one of the 11,500 post offices in the UK. I acknowledge that a post office needs to be open for that to happen, so I am not presenting it as a perfect solution, but it is a significant alternative source of cash for many people.

Additionally, in the autumn Budget at the end of October the Chancellor announced the Government’s plan to help local high streets to evolve and adapt to changing consumer demands. It included £675 million for the future high streets fund to support local areas’ plans to make their high streets and town centres fit for the future.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West raised a couple of specific points about digital payments failure. The Treasury and the UK financial authorities take this issue very seriously and are investing in improving the operational resilience of the system, including cyber, across the financial sector. Over the next five years, £1.9 billion will be spent on cyber-security initiatives.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about helping the vulnerable. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has a digital skills partnership that is looking at partnerships across the private, public and charity sectors, which also involves training in digital skills for adults.

On the point about the powers of the PSR, it has the power to direct LINK and impose financial penalties; it is committed to using those powers. It also made a direct intervention on the interchange fees to LINK to deal with this issue.

To conclude, I thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West for raising this issue. It is surely right that we consider the impact of an increasingly digital world and ensure that we protect those who need to be able to pay by cash. In the here and now, cash use remains important; it is still the second most frequently used payment method, just behind debit cards. We also know that around 2.2 million consumers predominantly use cash, many of whom are the more vulnerable members of our society.

I take this matter very seriously. I chair the Government’s financial inclusion forum, and for me there is a combination of interventions. There will be interventions from the regulator to deal with those who are making it very difficult for people to access affordable credit. However, this issue is also about increasing capacity.

I do not rule anything out in terms of efforts to improve the situation. With my officials, I have spoken to the PSR about this issue, and it has engaged with the regulator and LINK on this topic. I assure the Chamber this morning that I will continue to emphasise the importance that this Government place on widespread free access to cash.