Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As so often, the right hon. Gentleman speaks with great clarity on these matters. Of course, we need a UN that can do that. That is why we sometimes end up in the situation of being absolutely certain that it is right to take a particular action, but because of a veto on the United Nations Security Council, it somehow becomes legally wrong. There is a question sometimes about how can something be morally right but legally wrong. We therefore need to make sure we keep looking at reforming the United Nations, so we can bring those two things together.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

In the hope that we all accept that war should always the measure of last resort once all other possible options have been exhausted and given the publication of the Chilcot report, will the Prime Minister now do something that no Government have done since 2003: finally and unequivocally admit that this intervention was both wrong and a mistake?

[The Prime Minister]

I think people should read the report and come to their own conclusions. Clearly, the aftermath of the conflict was profoundly disastrous in so many ways. I do not move away from that at all. I just take the view that if we voted in a particular way, we cannot turn the clock back. We have to take our share of responsibility, but we learn the lessons of what clearly went wrong.

EU Council

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. This is one of the key arguments. When I examine why I have always believed that we are better off in, even though I have wanted to see reform, it has always come down to this: the single market exists, we are in it, and it will go on existing even if we leave it and it has a profound effect on our economic, business, political and national life. I certainly urge my colleagues to aim for the greatest possible access, but, obviously, they will have to think about what the benefits and disbenefits of that route are.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Does the Prime Minister accept that, when negotiating with the EU, we should remember our many strengths? One of the strongest economies, Britain has many competitive advantages that would more than compensate for any tariffs, which the World Trade Organisation will ensure cannot be punitive even if they were imposed. Furthermore, nations around the world, including Australia and New Zealand, are already knocking at our door with regard to trade deals.

[The Prime Minister]

Certainly no one is more impressed by the strength of the British economy than I am. It is strong, and it has a lot of advantages and many key industries that are admired the world over. We have to recognise that it will be a hard and difficult negotiation in many ways, because we are negotiating with a bloc of 440 million people, but we should make the most of our strengths. I would avoid tariffs, though. The idea that tariffs can be compensated for in other ways is quite dangerous talk. If we think of the car companies and others that want to come and invest here, they do not want to do that and then pay tariffs as they sell into the European single market, so I think tariffs are, on the whole, to be avoided.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I will be very frank. The Government were elected on a manifesto promise to hold a referendum. We have held that referendum, the country has made its decision and this Government are responsible now for setting out the steps that we need to take and for doing all that is necessary to stabilise the economy. We took a choice to ask the people this very big question, because I believe in our parliamentary democracy but when it comes to the very big decisions I think it is right to consult the people. But this Government take responsibility.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

In respecting with dignity the wishes of the electorate, does the Prime Minister accept that he has an absolutely pivotal role to play in encouraging all sides to come together and talk the country up? Calm optimism is now required. We are a great country, and we have a very bright future ahead of us.

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly believe that we all have a responsibility to bring the country together and to make this new pathway work as well as it does, but we have to do it from a position of realism. We do not know exactly what some of the economic and other effects will be, so we are going to have to take great caution and care in the coming days and the coming weeks to respond to that, as well as coming together to get the best pathway for our country to leave this organisation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am working very closely with the hon. Gentleman, as is my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, to help do everything we can to secure a future for Tata Steel. The sales process is progressing, and that is encouraging. I would say that, yes, for steel, we are better off inside the European Union, because together as 28 countries, we are far better able to stand up to the Chinese or, indeed, the Americans over dumped steel. Where we put in place those dumping tariffs, you can see 95%, 98%, and 99% reductions in the quantity of Chinese steel in those categories being imported into the EU. We still face a very difficult situation—there is still massive overcapacity —but we are definitely, for the steel industry, better off as part of this organisation, fighting for British steelworkers’ jobs.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Will the Prime Minister address an issue that the remain camp has so far fudged? Our present immigration policy, in all truthfulness, cannot control numbers coming in from the EU to the benefit of our public services, and also actually discriminates against the rest of the world outside the EU.

[The Prime Minister]

Having spent my evening yesterday with Mr Farage—or Farridge, as I like to call him—I am confused about what the leave camp actually wants when it comes to immigration. I thought it wanted less immigration, but now it seems to want more immigration from outside the EU into our country. My view is that we should restrict welfare in the way that we have negotiated, so that people have to come and work here for four years before they get full access to our welfare system—no more “something for nothing”; people pay in before they get out—and then we should focus on proper controls on migration from outside the EU, on which we have made some progress over recent years and can do some more. That is the right answer. As for the alternative of an Australian points system, if we look at Australia, it has twice as much immigration per head as we have here in the UK. That is not the right answer for Britain.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 4th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am sorry that it has taken so long for a question in 1989 to get an answer, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that setting up a centre of expertise on sexual abuse is exactly what the Home Office is doing. It will play a significant role in identifying and sharing high-quality evidence on what works to prevent and deal with sexual abuse and exploitation. Alongside this, the Department for Education’s existing What Works centre will ensure that social workers across the country are able to learn from the best examples. It is a good example of Government reform, which I know the hon. Gentleman supports.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The Prime Minister and we on the Government Benches can be very proud of the fact that in recent years we have reduced both relative poverty and income inequality. We are a one nation party or we are nothing. Does the Prime Minister agree with Lord Rose, the leader of the Remain campaign, that if we were to leave the EU and exercise greater control over immigration for the sake of public services, wages would rise even faster?

[The Prime Minister]

If we were to leave the EU, I think we would see an impact on our economy that would be largely negative. That is not just my view; that is the view now of the Bank of England, the International Monetary Fund, the OECD and a growing number of international bodies. I would say to anybody who wants to make that choice that obviously it is a choice for the British people to make, but we have to be clear about the economic consequences.

European Council

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, this is already an agreement and it will shortly be deposited at the UN as an international law decision. Therefore, it will already by then be legally binding and irreversible. Getting out of ever closer union, and indeed redefining closer union, is so important that I think it needs to go in the treaties, and the agreement here is that when the treaties next change, that will be written into those treaties. We have a double lock on this, a vital point.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I suggest that this is tinkering; it is certainly not fundamental change. The red card is not a veto; it will not stop the majority of the EU forcing unwanted taxes and regulations on this country. May I put it to the Prime Minister that he should at least accept the possibility that the red card could be turned against us, in that UK-sponsored initiatives could be blocked by the majority of the EU—initiatives that could be in our best interests, such as access and further enhancement of the single market?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not overstate the red card. It is a new mechanism, not to delay but to properly block initiatives, that is available to national Parliaments should they want to avail themselves of it. To me, this is about another thing that makes this organisation more democratically accountable to national Parliaments. If my hon. Friend is saying that, on some occasions, that might work against us because other national Parliaments might want to stop something on which we were keen, I have to say that I suppose that that is accountability and democracy. The point is that, because of my decision, this organisation will be more democratic rather than less democratic.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Provided that we secure the agreement that we need, yes, of course I do. We are seeing an industrial renaissance in the west midlands, much of it involving the automotive industry. I have had a number of meetings with car manufacturers in recent days: I saw representatives of Toyota and Ford yesterday, I have had conversations with Jaguar Land Rover and others, and I was with BMW representatives in Germany recently. They have all made the point that Britain is a great centre for the manufacture of cars, and of engines in particular. That is relevant to the issue of the standards set in Europe and our being a rule maker and not a rule taker, which is very important for our auto industry.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Following the Prime Minister’s response to my recent parliamentary question, I have taken his advice and cleared the diary for a debate in the Chamber tomorrow on parliamentary sovereignty. Given the importance of sovereignty to the EU negotiations, will he join us for that debate, and, perhaps, respond to it on behalf of the Government?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very sorry, but I have not been able to clear my own diary. Tomorrow is the Syria conference. In fact, many people will arrive tonight—more than 30 Presidents and Prime Ministers, I believe. The aim is to raise twice as much for the Syria refugee appeal this year as we did last year. However, I know that my hon. Friend is keen to have a word, and I will make sure that we fix that up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly will join the hon. Lady in supporting Lara’s campaign. I have had meetings with bone marrow organisations in No. 10 Downing Street to support their matching campaign. I am sure that, by her raising it at Question Time in this way, many others will want to come to this event on Saturday and support Lara in the way she suggests.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Q13. The Prime Minister is aware that a number of colleagues and I await his response to our request, made in November, for a meeting regarding his EU renegotiations to discuss the importance of this Parliament—by itself, if necessary—being able to stop any unwanted taxes, regulations or directives, which goes to the core of issues such as control of our borders, business regulation and so on. Will he now meet us prior to the next EU meeting?

[The Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend can imagine, I am having a range of meetings with colleagues about the European issue. I am sure that I will be covering as many in our parliamentary party as possible. I have always felt, with my hon. Friend, that he has slightly made up his mind already and wants to leave the EU whatever the results, and I do not want to take up any more of his time than is necessary.

ISIL in Syria

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron)

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I thank the Prime Minister for giving way. Does he understand that at a time when too many aircraft are already chasing too few targets, many of us are concerned about the lack of a comprehensive strategy, both military and non-military, including an exit strategy? One of the fundamental differences between Iraq and Syria is that in Iraq there are nearly 1 million personnel on the Government payroll, and still we are having trouble pushing ISIL back. In Syria, with the 70,000 moderates, we risk forgetting the lesson of Libya. What is the Prime Minister’s reaction to the decision yesterday by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs that he had not adequately addressed our concerns?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me answer both of my hon. Friend’s questions. The second question is perhaps answered with something in which I am sure the whole House will want to join me in, which is wishing the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) well, given his recent illness. He is normally always at the Foreign Affairs Committee, and always voting on non-party grounds on the basis of the arguments in which he believes.

Where my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I disagree is on this: I believe that there is a strategy, of which military action is only one part. The key answer to his question is that we want to see a new Syrian transitional Government whose troops will then be our allies in squeezing out and destroying the so-called caliphate altogether. My disagreement with my hon. Friend is that I believe that we cannot wait for that happen. The threat is now; ISIL/Daesh is planning attacks now. We can act in Syria as we act in Iraq, and in doing so, we can enhance the long-term security and safety of our country, which is why we should act.

Syria

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, who speaks for the whole country in thanking our armed forces for the work they are already doing to combat ISIL. I can give him the absolute assurance that what we are talking about here is action against ISIL, not action against anybody else. I completely agree with him on being clear about strategy, clear about targeting and, as I was today, clear about the end point of what we are trying to achieve. They are all very much part of our approach.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Having just returned from the middle east, I know that regional powers and allies believe that, in the absence of a realistic long-term strategy and proper local knowledge, we risk repeating the errors we made in our interventions in Iraq, in Afghanistan post-2006 and in Libya. Key questions remain unanswered, including how best to combat the sectarianism, the extremism, and the ideology that all extremist groups, not just Daesh, feed off; and how best to disrupt the business flows—we have been talking about this in relation to Daesh for over a year now, with no effect. Also, I ask him to look again at his figure of 70,000 for Free Syrian Army forces, because we have been told very directly in recent contact that there are very few moderates remaining on either side of this civil war. Without answers to these questions, airstrikes will only reinforce the west’s failure in the region generally, at a time when already there are too many aircraft chasing too few targets.

[The Prime Minister]

I believe that what there are too many of is terrorists threatening our country, but I agree with my hon. Friend that we have to combat the ideology, and that is a very big part of our strategy. It is a very big part of our domestic strategy—the Prevent duty: what we are saying all our schools and universities must do, and what our communities must do together. I think that more action on that has been taken by this country than by many others in Europe and around the world.

On starving ISIL of money and resources, I could not agree more. If there are more UN resolutions, more action, more that can be done, I will be first to push for that, but let us be frank about where ISIL get their money from: they got their money out of the banks in Mosul; they get their money from selling oil to Assad; they get their money from owning and occupying such a large amount of territory.

The 70,000 figure is not mine. I have not produced any of these figures; they come directly from the security and intelligence experts who advise me, now filtered through a proper Joint Intelligence Committee process set up under the Butler inquiry after the Iraq war. I am determined that we learn the lessons of that conflict, but surely the lesson cannot be that when we are threatened and we can make a difference, we should somehow stand back.

G20 and Paris Attacks

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the support that he gave to the Indian Prime Minister’s visit to our country last week. What I said standing alongside Prime Minister Modi is that while of course we still have to fight discrimination and racism in our country, I think we can lay some claim to being one of the most successful, multi-racial, multi-faith, multi-ethnic democracies in our world. India aspires to do that as well, and it should link us. The right hon. Gentleman is right about working with internet companies. Just as we have worked with them to try to take paedophilia and child pornography off the internet, so there is more we can do to get this extremism off the internet as well.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The Prime Minister is right to focus on the importance of a multi-faceted approach, but may I suggest to him that when it comes to military intervention in Syria, we must learn from previous errors and try to ensure that we put together a proper strategy involving regional powers and allies, including Iran and Russia, which might have to recognise that ISIL is a greater danger than President Assad, because we need to accept that air strikes alone will not defeat this evil regime?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We will do everything we can to help, including the financial package that the hon. Lady set out—making sure we help people with retraining and new opportunities, and with bringing new industries to the area—but let me tell her what we cannot do. We cannot in this House set the world price of steel and we cannot overcome the fact that the SSI plant had lost £600 million in this Parliament. Those are the facts which, frankly, Opposition Members have to engage with.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

In answer to my question yesterday about our EU renegotiations, the Foreign Secretary confirmed that there was little or no prospect of this Parliament alone being able to say no to any unwanted EU directive, tax or regulation. Can I ask the Prime Minister to try to put that right?

[The Prime Minister]

What we have said is that we want to see a system of red cards on new EU regulations. It is for national Parliaments to work together to deliver that, but that is only one of the things that we want to change in our relationship with Europe. For instance, getting Britain out of ever closer union is not simply a symbol; it will be taken into account in all future jurisprudence when the European Court of Justice is considering whether to go ahead with a measure. In the end, hon. Members, including my hon. Friend, will have to choose whether to stay in Europe on an amended basis or whether to leave. I am determined to deliver the strongest possible renegotiation that addresses the concerns of the British people, so that we have a proper choice.

Tunisia, and European Council

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 29th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Co-operation, such as it has been, in combating Daesh has focused on the military situation. However, in recognising that we have failed significantly to disrupt its financial flows from Arab-friendly countries and powerful organisations and individuals from within them, failed to disrupt its prominence on social media, and failed to disrupt its business activities, what more can the Prime Minister tell the House about concrete steps that are going to be taken to combat ISIL—or Daesh, I should say—in these other areas?

[The Prime Minister]

I would not entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s description of this. Looking at what allied air action has done in Iraq, together with the Kurds, we have shrunk the territory that ISIL holds in that country. There have been some very great successes in taking down ISIL social media sites—taking pages off the web—and in the past few months a number of prominent plots in this country, perhaps as many as four or five, have been prevented. It is very important that we talk up our capabilities, strength and resolve in this way, but he is right to say that more needs to be done. The finance needs to be attacked. We need to bring to bear more pressure against ISIL both in Iraq and in Syria. As I said on the radio this morning, we are going to have to demonstrate some real long-term resolve. If we are not going to invade these countries directly, but we are going to build up their Governments and their militaries, we have to settle in for the long haul knowing that this is the right answer but it will take time.

G7

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his response. Let me take all his points in turn. On maritime security and the SDSR, he is right to make the point that the high north and the Arctic should be carefully considered in the SDSR and I will ensure that that happens. I do not agree with him on our record on refugees. We have an excellent record and we are the second largest bilateral donor to ensure that those people fleeing conflict in Syria and Iraq are properly looked after. We have a programme for resettling particularly vulnerable families, but if he thinks that the answer to a refugee crisis of tens of millions of people is a resettlement programme, he is completely wrong. The answer must be stabilising those countries and allowing people to return.

I think the hon. Gentleman is right about frozen conflicts. One reason we should take the problems of Russian aggression into Ukraine so seriously is to be clear that we will not tolerate the situations that happened in Georgia and elsewhere, where frozen conflicts have been created. It is important that we take a strong stand through sanctions, unlike what happened with Georgia, where the international community moved on.

On TTIP, I will say to the hon. Gentleman, as I said to Labour, that raising these false fears about potential privatisation of the NHS is a waste of an opportunity. In the English NHS, the commissioners of services will make the decisions and they invest over and over again in a national health service. In Scotland, as he knows, the only person who can privatise the NHS is the Scottish Government. Instead of raising false fears, we should be putting on the table bold proposals to open up American markets. For instance, the Scottish knitwear manufacturer that I visited recently, suffers from massive tariffs and wants to be able to sell into the US. He should spend his time looking after those businesses and those jobs and fighting for them.

On the question of tax evasion, tax avoidance and collaborating with the FIFA investigation, I am sure that we can give that reassurance but I will check carefully.

Finally, I say to the hon. Gentleman that I believe in human rights and I think that the best way to safeguard them is to have a British Bill of Rights. Why not have these decisions made in British courts rather than in Strasbourg courts? That is the position of the Government.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Further to discussions about Russia and ISIL, the Prime Minister will be aware that during Russia’s annexation of the Crimea the Foreign and Commonwealth Office did not have one in-house Crimea expert, and that at the height of the Arab spring the FCO was so thin on the ground that retired Arabists had to be recalled. Has not the time now come for greater investment in the FCO in order to help us navigate this increasingly uncertain world?

[The Prime Minister]

I can reassure my hon. Friend that the FCO is hiring more Russian speakers, but the advice I get from our excellent ambassador in Russia, Tim Barrow, is of a very high standard. His team works extremely hard and I want to take this opportunity to thank them publicly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Baron and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I shall look very closely at the case that the hon. Gentleman mentions. Obviously, everything that Jobcentre Plus can do to find employment for those people should be done. He talks, though, about the “fragility” of the economy. In his constituency, the claimant count has fallen by a third over the last year, so jobs are being made available. But as I say, where Jobcentre Plus can help with finding people work, we will certainly make sure that it does.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The UN Secretary-General has described the refugee situation in Jordan and Lebanon as

“the worst humanitarian crisis of our time.”

What more can Britain do, in tandem with other countries, to help relieve the suffering, and to learn from the lessons of history to ensure that poorly resourced refugee camps do not become breeding grounds for extremism?

[The Prime Minister]

The first thing that we can do is to continue our investment, using our aid budget as—I think—the second largest bilateral donor in providing refugee support and refugee camps, whether in Jordan or elsewhere in the region. We should continue with that, but clearly the answer to this problem is to allow those people to go back home, whether to Iraq or to Syria, so what we need is a Government in both those countries that can represent and work with all their people.

There is some progress in Iraq with the Abadi Government in Iraq, and we need to make sure that they can represent Sunnis as well as Shi’as. In Syria, the situation is far, far worse, but we should still continue, with others, with the plan of training the moderate Syrian opposition and trying to bring about a transition, so we get rid of the Assad regime and Assad himself, who is one of the biggest drivers of terror in the region, because of what he has done to his people. That is the strategy we should pursue, for however long it takes to succeed.