Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Jo Churchill and Maggie Throup

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 8th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Maggie Throup]

Q In your written evidence, you said:

“The Department of Health should provide greater clarity on the additional information that will be required by the Department”.

Can you expand on that further and outline what clarification you need as an industry?

David Watson: First, we agree with the intent of the information powers. It is important; if the Department is to address some of the issues of significant price rises, it needs the information to go and do that. Our concern was that, as written, the Bill is extremely broad in this area. For example, it will require companies to provide profit-level data at product level, or even the cost of delivery at the product level. That requirement would be on every company across, potentially, tens of thousands of products a week. So we thought that the Bill was too broad in that area, and we would like to make some written submissions about how it could be tightened—although we recognise that the regulations underpinning the Bill, which we saw yesterday, provide some additional clarity in this area.

[Jo Churchill]

Q Just as a small supplementary to that, having run businesses—I would imagine pharma is the same—is it not possible that when you drill down to that sort of level, an unintended consequence will be that where you perhaps support a drug to market by using one that has volume-based profit to it, you may unintentionally stop that development? My other worry is about the rare diseases and specialist cancer areas, where it is highly expensive to develop drugs. We all know that we are trying to close this loophole, and that is right—exploitation around that area is not good for the NHS or, ultimately, patients—but can you see any unintended consequences that you would like to flag before you go?

David Watson: Yes, we recognise that it is very difficult to put a specific cap on a price, because the requirements on a company to produce, discover and sometimes cross-subsidise some of their costs across their portfolio are quite complicated. If the UK system, it seems, wants to drive costs of some medicines down to the lowest possible mark then that is, of course, quite possible, but the consequence if we look at areas such as vaccines, though, is that we end up in a situation in which companies do not invest appropriately in the factories or quality, etc., and then there are potential gaps in the supply of those products. So what we would ask for here is that, when the Department is considering the circumstances in which it thinks the price is too high, it has a dialogue with that company to understand the reasons for the price and what may be going on underneath to ensure the continuity of supply of the product.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Jo Churchill and Maggie Throup

Thursday 7th January 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Jo Churchill]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hamilton.

I read new clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 with a degree of sadness and, because of my age, no small feeling of déjà vu. How many times have I heard the justification that to be fair we must regulate? Regulation and quotas, however, do not always work as we might want—the Labour party might know that from current experience. What saddens me about the new clauses is the lack of understanding of independent schools and the benefits that they bring to the table, including how they already contribute to the public good. The proposals would apply red tape to something that is already working.

Independent schools are inspected by the Independent Schools Inspectorate or by Ofsted, and their contribution to public benefit is already commented on in those bodies’ assessments. The whole point of the Bill, it seems to me, is to give the Charity Commission the right to hold to account those who act in the name of charity. If an organisation has been granted the status of a charity, it is right and proper for it to be held to account for its behaviours and that of its trustees—we discussed that on Tuesday—and for its outcomes. That is as true for an educational charity as it is for any other.

Is there a little bit of mischief-making in the tabling of the new clauses? Yes, there is the cost of £700 million, but the taxpayer is also saved a cost in that the education of 500,000 children is paid for by individual parents, so the additional money is engaged in the system.

It is well documented that schools at the apogee, such as Eton and Wellington College, rightly sponsor local state schools and do all manner of things as part of their outreach. They teach older people computer skills, work with local primary schools, and cascade and absorb good practice—from the independent sector to the state sector and back into the independent sector from the state sector. It should be remembered, however, that 55% of all independent schools have fewer than 350 pupils, which means that it is not commercially viable for them to outreach all their systems to fill those gaps.

Incidentally, my children were educated nowhere near a private school. If we accept the new clauses, for those who are not fortunate enough to live near a well equipped private school we have created nothing but another two-tier system. Also, 28.7% of pupils educated in the independent system are from minority ethnic backgrounds, which is a higher proportion than in the state system.

A local example in my constituency is South Lee school. A new sports facility was required, and without prescription or any of the new clauses, the school set up a community interest company, working with my borough council, a charity called Sporting 87 and Bury St Edmunds cricket club. A community use agreement with the council kept rates for use affordable. The school uses the facilities during the day in term time and allows other schools to use them if possible. Everyone in the community is involved and at the weekends, evenings and in the holidays, it is fully used by tennis clubs, archery clubs, cricket and so on. Everybody gains.

[Maggie Throup]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the new clauses would undo a lot of the hard work that has been done to create partnerships between independent schools and the state sector? Forcing specific types of partnerships might undo all the good that is being done and would be detrimental.

[Jo Churchill]

I could not agree more—it is not always necessary to tell people how to behave well.

The school has forged great community links and the council and people in my constituency got another sports ground for very little investment. It helps social cohesion and health outcomes, among other things, as the hon. Member for Redcar alluded to.

My underlying belief is that people should be allowed to choose what is right for themselves and their family. The clauses would legislate choice and good behaviour out of the system to a degree, and that is regressive. Indeed, if my memory serves me correctly, the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) chose to send her son to a private school. As a mother, I can understand her need to make that choice about what is best for her child. Should we deprive others of that choice? I do not think so, but the new clauses could begin to do that.

The worry is that the clauses will not allow small schools that offer specialisms in areas that the hon. Member for Redcar discussed to continue to do so across the board, particularly for gifted music scholars, those who are talented at sports and budding linguists. All have benefited from education in the independent sector. Many of these schools offer bursaries and 100% scholarships to youngsters whose parents would not normally be able to afford the fees. Similarly, and of the utmost importance, some of the best education for our children with dyslexia or autism occurs in the independent sector, easing the burden on state schools to provide special needs support.