Local Government Finance Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Jim McMahon and Kevin Foster

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

I take that point completely, but we may need to take Surry out of the equation, because there are rules for everybody and then there are separate rules for Surrey; we will need to account for that in future legislation. Obviously, if an elderly relative needs social care, Surrey is the place to be, but we must make laws for the whole country. This is about restricting artificial competition, where possible. One area may not be aware of discussions in the area next door because they may be covered by commercial sensitivity considerations. The risk of that information being released as a result of a random text message being mis-sent is very unlikely—I am sure it almost never happens—but local authorities could be set up artificially against each another.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I hear what the shadow Minister is saying, but his amendment 30 refers to consulting, not securing agreement. By his own logic, if an authority is not aware of something and then gets a letter, it may decide to do the very thing he is talking about.

[Jim McMahon]

Local authorities are independent units of government. They cannot be at the beck and call of their neighbour. Their working together constructively is important for local relationships and the local economy, and that is exactly what the amendment would provide for. “Consultation” includes an assumption that local authorities will reach out, be inclusive and share in a constructive and mature way with their neighbouring authorities. I cannot see why this small change would be contentious. Surely it is in the interests of all local government, as a family, and as a unit, that people work together to the same end. Of course we welcome investment from the private sector when it moves to an area, but that should not be used to create an artificial divide between neighbouring authorities. That is the point of the amendment.

Amendments 48 and 49 are simply about expanding the power available to some bodies to change the multiplier, so that it is available to all billing authorities, the Greater London Authority and county councils. Through these amendments, we are trying to say, “We respect every unit of local government, whether it is a combined authority with a Mayor, a metropolitan authority, a London authority, a district council or a county.” Every unit of government should have the right to affect the economy in its area.

Taken as a package, these amendments would expand the freedoms that the Government are trying to progress—freedoms that local government has largely welcomed—and make them available to all local government, in the way that it is proposed they be made available to some. The amendments would enable local authorities to act in a mature way, consult their near neighbours and, hopefully, get agreement on the best way to administer a scheme, in tune with neighbouring authorities, rather than acting against them.

I do not propose to spend any more time on this matter, although we could go on at length about it for the sake of it. These are quite minor amendments in the scheme of things. They are certainly not contentious; they are more about tidying up the offer, and expanding it to a wider group of people. The consultation required with neighbouring authorities would be similar in spirit to the way in which local plans under development involve consultation with neighbouring authorities, so it would bring the Bill into line with other legislation affecting local government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim McMahon]

I often agree with my hon. Friend, but I do not want to paint the Minister as having little influence over his colleagues. I am sure they listened to his sound wisdom, reflected on it and took it on board. The Minister may not be the Minister tomorrow, however, and the legislation that we are creating transcends individuals. It is about having a framework in place to govern the nation.

Getting parity, prescription and consistency is important. I go on about consistency quite a lot because I have been on the other side of the argument when national Government passed legislation that was not clear or consistent. That only leads to confusion at local level.

The difference is that when central Government are confused, local government is confused and hundreds of individual authorities are confused, and that has cost and time implications. The more we can do to create a clear framework where duplication is not required to understand where the Government are trying to get to is to everyone’s benefit.

[Kevin Foster]

Given what is going on elsewhere, it is welcome to see some consistency in the shadow Front-Bench Members who have shown up; they have not managed to resign yet.

I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s points. Amendments 45 and 46 are about increasing business rates. Perhaps he would like to spend some time dwelling on why he thinks putting business rates up on things like retail shops in local areas would be a benefit as his amendments allude to.

[Jim McMahon]

The point is about making sure that the powers that are being devolved to local billing authorities can be implemented. Critical to implementation is the affordability of the measures being taken. It is okay saying local authorities can take a hit on their tax base by reducing the multiplier, but that money must come from somewhere. We have seen time after time, and we have discussed time after time, the pressures in adult social care and frontline services when local councils just do not have the headroom required to fund the reduction.

The logical thing to do is to give all billing authorities the power to be able to teem and ladle within the business rate tax base, which is what the amendments are trying to get to. Many people would find it reasonable, as we heard in our evidence sessions, that large ratepayers—the big supermarkets and out-of-town warehouses—should probably pay more to fund the vitality of our local high streets and town centres. I think most members of the public would support that.

Local Government Finance Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Jim McMahon and Kevin Foster

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

It would be ludicrous if the paper on distribution, which we are waiting to see, resulted in Westminster, which has had every advantage, keeping 100% of £2 billion. I would be amazed if any Government would be that stupid. I know that the Minister would not allow that to happen, because the kick-back from Conservative authorities would be as loud as that from Labour authorities. It strikes at the heart of fairness. It cannot be right that the seat of Government, with so many Departments involved in the payment of business rates into the system, has nothing to do with the actions of Westminster City Council. History shows that we have reached this point because that is how the UK Government have developed over time.

[Kevin Foster]

The hon. Gentleman was talking about examples of delayed discharges and particular councils. The new integrated care organisation in Torbay has produced some of the lowest levels—possibly the lowest level—of delayed discharges, despite the challenges posed by Torbay’s demographics. Does he think that that model could be extended elsewhere?

[Jim McMahon]

I absolutely believe that there is more to be done to bring together health and social care budgets into one pooled pot for the local area, with local government being given the responsibility for teeming and ladling and being held to account by the public for that. That is absolutely the right way to go. Only by doing that can we break down the institutional silos.

To be fair, the NHS has not reformed in the same way that local councils have had to reform. Joint working could benefit both parties, but we have to be honest about the transition required to do that, and accept that any pilot that has enough money and energy thrown at it can be made to work. We need to consider whether the pilot can be mainstreamed. Different people may approach everyday activities in different ways, so the two systems will have to run alongside each other for a certain period, with the inherent demand continuing as the new system kicks in.

Councils have to be able to see that change through. It could take a five to 10-year project to see through the cultural change to systems and processes, staffing terms and conditions, and everything else that would need to be looked at to ensure that it works. We are seeing that with troubled families. The Government do not have the long-term vision or appetite to see through genuine cultural change in how we deliver public services. If they do not see a saving after year one, two or three, the money is pulled and we start from scratch with another pilot. I absolutely believe in reform, but it has to be sustained reform over a period of time, and we have to be realistic about the amount of time it will take.

Local Government Finance Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Jim McMahon and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Jim McMahon]

Q Finally, the Minister does not believe that there is a crisis in adult social care. Do the LGA and Core Cities agree with that view?

Councillor Nick Forbes: The LGA position, as a cross-party organisation, is very clear that there is a crisis in adult social care. The changes made in the settlement, with the adult social care grant and the ability to raise additional money through the council tax precept, are a sticking-plaster approach. There is cross-party agreement that this is the biggest single challenge that we face as a sector. We are collectively asking the Government to use the Budget on 8 March as a way to find a longer-term solution to the problem.

Councillor Jon Collins: My answer earlier was clear that we believe that there is a crisis.

[Kevin Foster]

Q I have listened to the answers so far and will not go back over old ground. However, I am interested to hear more about the difference the Bill will make. There is no point in legislating for the fun of it. What actual difference will it make? Apart from the obvious use of the provision for discretionary relief for public toilets, what aspect of the Bill do you see your councils looking to use for the benefit of local residents?

Councillor Nick Forbes: Local government is asking for a number of things. One is the need to increase accountability and visibility with regard to the general principle of connecting taxes raised with money spent in a local area. More specifically, local government is asking for flexibility on the use of business rates. At the moment, the multiplier can only be determined at an authority-wide level and there is no way of targeting growth to allow us to discount specific businesses or industries. Giving us those discretions would allow us to consolidate where we have sectoral strengths in how the enterprise zone system works, but currently at a very small scale.

You could see local authorities using this to drive growth, create jobs and deal with areas where you might have a neighbourhood shopping centre that is difficult to let because of the rates. At the moment, we have no ability to discount rates. That is the kind of thing we could make a real difference around. For me, the big prize is the flexibility that the system would give to allow us to be much more responsive to local need.

Councillor Jon Collins: It has the potential to provide real incentives to local authorities to focus attention on building business rate growth. I will caveat that by saying that, ultimately, whether it is effective will depend on the distribution formula and whether there is an assumption that any headroom generated by 100% collection and use of business rates is simply centrally earmarked against some additional expenditure or there is a little flexibility so that we can invest for that business growth.

Ultimately, local authorities, certainly Core Cities, are very clear about the importance of working closely with business and promoting development as a way of generating additional business rate growth. Obviously, in doing that we are enhancing and developing our cities in the way that we know our population wants to be developed.